6 units townhouses, can i just Bond neutral in one point at main splice box gutter

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i took over a job its 6 townhouses each one has a meter outside of the unit and main breaker at the garage panel, my question is can i bond all of the services at the live gutter that they put at the electrical room i will be splicing all wires in that gutter, i can install ground rods to ground water, foundation steel and neutral, what i was thinking is putting an isolated neutral bar at meter and run neutral and ground wire through the service.

they ran all meter conduits to the electrical room instead of the POCO transformer
 

Ponchik

Senior Member
Location
CA
Occupation
Electronologist
To me, based on your description, it is not very clear what your installation is.

Draw a picture and post it.
 
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kenman215

Senior Member
Location
albany, ny
i took over a job its 6 townhouses each one has a meter outside of the unit and main breaker at the garage panel, my question is can i bond all of the services at the live gutter that they put at the electrical room i will be splicing all wires in that gutter, i can install ground rods to ground water, foundation steel and neutral, what i was thinking is putting an isolated neutral bar at meter and run neutral and ground wire through the service.

they ran all meter conduits to the electrical room instead of the POCO transformer

So for clarification purposes, are you saying that these 6 townhouses are all part of the same structure and that structure shares a main electrical room, presumably with a house panel for exterior lighting, common areas, etc? And then instead of putting a meter rack there, they put individual meters on the each of the separated townhouse sections of the structure?
 

J.P.

Senior Member
Location
United States
Bond at the main service disconnect ( Garage panel ). In your case I guess it's before the meters. Is the garage panel the first panel after the transformer?
If you bond there you have to isolate neutrals form grounds form that point on.
All of your bonding/grounding should terminate here as well.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Take a look at 250.24(B) and its exception. In general each service disconnect must have a main bonding jumper within the disconnect enclosure. There is a limited exception for cases with multiple service disconnects, but it does not appear that the exception would apply in the case being discussed in this thread.
 
So for clarification purposes, are you saying that these 6 townhouses are all part of the same structure and that structure shares a main electrical room, presumably with a house panel for exterior lighting, common areas, etc? And then instead of putting a meter rack there, they put individual meters on the each of the separated townhouse sections of the structure?

That is corret, I'm not planning to put a main in the electrical room, I was going to put a gutter and splice all services together, but now I think I will need a main since it will be 6 meters plus the house panel?
 
So for clarification purposes, are you saying that these 6 townhouses are all part of the same structure and that structure shares a main electrical room, presumably with a house panel for exterior lighting, common areas, etc? And then instead of putting a meter rack there, they put individual meters on the each of the separated townhouse sections of the structure?

That's how they did the job, the problem is that they ran all meter conduits to the electrical room and ran 2-4" conduits to power company, it's the same structure 6 units and a electrical room for the house panel, tv, phone.
That will be 7 meters total
 

kenman215

Senior Member
Location
albany, ny
That's how they did the job, the problem is that they ran all meter conduits to the electrical room and ran 2-4" conduits to power company, it's the same structure 6 units and a electrical room for the house panel, tv, phone.
That will be 7 meters total
Since you're taking over someone else's shoddy work, is there a possibility that you could take the two 4" to feed a switchboard that feeds a meter rack, and replace the existing meters with disconnects? All neutrals and grounds would be tied in through the gear from the main service and it would be more of a proper installation.

It's a big hit cost wise, but probably the best way to do it, IMO.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
 
i took over a job its 6 townhouses each one has a meter outside of the unit and main breaker at the garage panel, my question is can i bond all of the services at the live gutter that they put at the electrical room i will be splicing all wires in that gutter, i can install ground rods to ground water, foundation steel and neutral, what i was thinking is putting an isolated neutral bar at meter and run neutral and ground wire through the service.

they ran all meter conduits to the electrical room instead of the POCO transformer


Is there a breaker for each unit feeder in the garage or just a main breaker? Not really sure what they were thinking. Even regardless of NEC issues, i have a hard time believing the utility would accept such an arrangement.

I agree with the previous poster about just putting a main and 7 cold sequenced meters in the garage and taking out or blanking off the existing meters. Another option may be to use 230.40 ex 2, but that would be contingent on the AHJ seeing the units as separate occupancies and you have 230.3 to deal with so you would need to get those conductors outside which i assume involves cutting some concrete....
 
Is there a breaker for each unit feeder in the garage or just a main breaker? Not really sure what they were thinking. Even regardless of NEC issues, i have a hard time believing the utility would accept such an arrangement.

I agree with the previous poster about just putting a main and 7 cold sequenced meters in the garage and taking out or blanking off the existing meters. Another option may be to use 230.40 ex 2, but that would be contingent on the AHJ seeing the units as separate occupancies and you have 230.3 to deal with so you would need to get those conductors outside which i assume involves cutting some concrete....

Question can i just put a live gutter in the electrical room splice all units and house panel and bond it one time there at the gutter? I know that best thing to do was to put all meters in one spot but, I have to work with existing conditions.
 

kenman215

Senior Member
Location
albany, ny
Question can i just put a live gutter in the electrical room splice all units and house panel and bond it one time there at the gutter? I know that best thing to do was to put all meters in one spot but, I have to work with existing conditions.

Not or trying to dodge the question, man, but honestly I would be in complete CYA mode. I would talk to both your inspector and utility company and make sure they're ok with what you're proposing. The last thing you want to do is get yourself in a situation where you end up taking responsibility for an install that gets rejected because you're trying to be a good steward of your customer's money. I appreciate the sentiment and it's one that I share, but CYA man, CYA...
 

J.P.

Senior Member
Location
United States
Maybe put a appropriate amp disconnect between the "live" gutter and the transformer and bond there. Pretty sure you can't bond in the gutter, it is not a disconnecting means.

I like the idea of getting tho poco and your electrical inspector on-site and having a chat.
 
Question can i just put a live gutter in the electrical room splice all units and house panel and bond it one time there at the gutter? I know that best thing to do was to put all meters in one spot but, I have to work with existing conditions.

Im not sure if you mean putting a main there or just splicing everything together as service conductors. If the latter, the only possible way I could see that happening is to use the section I mentioned previously to "get around" having to group the service disconnects, but you have to deal with 230.3. If you are talking about putting a main there, perhaps you can make it fly with the tap rules, or else have a breaker there for each feeder. As was mentioned previously though, I would seek the blessing of your utility for that one.
Pretty sure you can't bond in the gutter, it is not a disconnecting means.

The grounding electrode conductor can land anywhere between the service point and the service disconnecting means. So yes you could bond in the gutter assuming you could make everything else work - 250.24(A)(1).
 
Im not sure if you mean putting a main there or just splicing everything together as service conductors. If the latter, the only possible way I could see that happening is to use the section I mentioned previously to "get around" having to group the service disconnects, but you have to deal with 230.3. If you are talking about putting a main there, perhaps you can make it fly with the tap rules, or else have a breaker there for each feeder. As was mentioned previously though, I would seek the blessing of your utility for that one.


The grounding electrode conductor can land anywhere between the service point and the service disconnecting means. So yes you could bond in the gutter assuming you could make everything else work - 250.24(A)(1).


I was trying to upload a picture of the situation we have going on, i guess if i can't bond it at the gutter, i will have to do every unit individually, will it still be acceptable a gutter to splice all services at the main electrical room?
 
I was trying to upload a picture of the situation we have going on, i guess if i can't bond it at the gutter, i will have to do every unit individually, will it still be acceptable a gutter to splice all services at the main electrical room?

I believe i already answered the question in detail. And yes you could bond in the gutter. But you have far greater issues such as grouping of disconnects and service conductors passing through another structure.
 

kenman215

Senior Member
Location
albany, ny
I believe i already answered the question in detail. And yes you could bond in the gutter. But you have far greater issues such as grouping of disconnects and service conductors passing through another structure.

I feel as is OP is seeking our blessing for what he wants to do versus taking the best advice he's has been given, which is to involve the local utility and inspector. Their opinion matters far more than ours...
 
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