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Thread: 2020 Fire Fighter Disco 1 & 2 Family Dwellings 230.85

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by don_resqcapt19 View Post
    As currently written the rule does not permit any type of remote disconnect, one of the reasons it that the rule is intended to remove all power inside of the building. A remotely operated disconnect that is inside the building does not do that.
    well, one fear I have about the disconnects is the problem of theives or vandals, which is very common on homes...but also note a section of the proposed code.. this will not be service equipment rated... so, if ot is not service equipment it cannot be between the meter and the main breaker... but instead must have the main breaker installed ahead of it. So, you are talking a high amp variation of a three way switch loop, meter to main breaker, main breaker to firefighter disconnect, firefighter disconnect to breaker panel for #poco, and then somehow running the solar or wind or water power through another firefighter disconnect located in same area...

    All of this done to make it easy for the firefighters to disconnect power at one spot, in theory, which also aids the thieves and vandals, but adds costs to the homeowner or builder, and, in reality, if one thinks about it, unless relays are used, low voltage ones for safety reasons, ie: 12 to 24 volts DC... you still have the probability of live wires in the structure or on the roof of the structure, especially when you have people such as myself who can and do modify grid tied gear such as microinverters to run off grid...

    The use of low voltage relays means yes, there is still low voltages, 12 to 24 volts, present for the responders, but hopefully they will be trained in how to fully safe a solar system when working around it on a roof...IE, disconnect the quick connects at teh panel groups or switch off the various combiner boxes... as they move around them. Given the heights involved in my own area to get to the roofs, I am sure that mainly first responders would be the ones up on the roofs rather than thieves as the roof hight in my area averages 30 feet above ground...

    Also, in my own area, breaker panels are normally on an inside wall, not an outside wall, in a hallway, due to the single thickness walls. Double walls like used in USA and UK are not normal..only cavities in walls here are those left by not filling the blocks with cement.

    So, I would want to see remote switching allowed to shut down the various panels, especially with the no more than six disconnect rule as some of the homes I have dealt with have four breaker panels, each with its own generator or solar interlocks, plus a main panel, plus all the inverters etc... a big trick here is to use a few panels on microinverters specifically for the water pumps to bring the water from underground tanks to roof tanks , tricked to run in daytime from aan ac circuit running from another part of the systems in the house, or to run it directly from DC if a dc water pump was found from the suppliers... Since this is a dedicated system of only two to three panels, sometimes one panel even, and no actual breaker boxes run by some of the people, how to disconnect this without running a remote disconnect is one of the things I need to figure out as I see this way more than some people would think... I am in a country where people have to keep at least a weeks water on site, and where the local water company only supplying water to your neighborhood once per week or twice per week is considered a good water service..lol..
    Student of electrical codes. Please Take others advice first.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterTheNEC View Post
    Again shows your ignorance in the process. I for example represent the Aluminum Association and Copper Development on CMP 5 and 17. If you don't have industry experts (and I could careless if you think I am or not) then you would have worse issues in the NEC. But then again this crap gets old......get on a panel and fix it fella since you have all the answers..LOL...I egarly await your fine work.
    The industry should respond to the NEC rules with products, not the other way around. That's why anyone in the industry should be forbidden. The tail doesn't wag the dog. You can't see this or admit it because your paycheck comes from the industry and you sure aren't going to bite the hand that feeds you.

  3. #83
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    Late coming to this one, but one thing that has barely been mentioned but seems to me the most important part of this discussion. Standby power. This code would not turn power off at my house. From what I have read it also will not disconnect power from many solar homes.


    I know what I don't know, and I know where to go to find it!

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterTheNEC View Post
    Welcome to Capitalism genius. If not for manufacturers you would still rubbing two sticks together to obtain fire. You clearly don't understand the "actual" makeup of a CMP but alas I would expect as much...
    A code of this magnitude should not be directed from a capitalistic manufacturer or installer. It should be a reaction to a requirement from the fire fighting agencies it is allegedly attempting to protect.


    I know what I don't know, and I know where to go to find it!

  5. #85
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    Keeping in mind it s National Code, whenever folks discuss a service disconnect outside the house I think of some of our northern States.
    At my age, I'm accustomed to restaurants asking me to pay in advance, but now my bank has started sending me their calendar one month at a time.

  6. #86
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    You all kill me....for those who say the NEC is overstepping ask yourself why California is now requiring all new one and two-family homes to have PV Solar Panels installed. Now guess that was manufacturers also or your legislators at work.

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...-homes-n872531
    *All code responses are based on the 2017 National Electrical Code®[NEC®]

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterTheNEC View Post
    You all kill me....for those who say the NEC is overstepping ask yourself why California is now requiring all new one and two-family homes to have PV Solar Panels installed. Now guess that was manufacturers also or your legislators at work.

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...-homes-n872531
    Apples and oranges. That law was passed by elected officials. There is recourse if those officials pass something their constituents do not like.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by packersparky View Post
    Apples and oranges. That law was passed by elected officials. There is recourse if those officials pass something their constituents do not like.
    Exactly. Besides, it's just a distraction from the real issue which is undue manufacturer influence on the CMP. Even if you take the most optimistic view, one can't help but ask why manufacturers need to be part of the code making process. They make products, not code rules. They can make their products to conform to rules and standards. It's not that hard. That's why I say it's corrupt through and through.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strathead View Post
    Late coming to this one, but one thing that has barely been mentioned but seems to me the most important part of this discussion. Standby power. This code would not turn power off at my house. From what I have read it also will not disconnect power from many solar homes.
    If the solar has a utility interactive inverter, the disconnection of the utility power will cause the inverter to shut down. A generator is another issue, but the code does require an external method to stop the prime mover for the generator. I expect that we will see a signage requirement at the emergency disconnect that would specific the location of any additional power sources in the future.
    Don, Illinois
    (All code citations are 2017 unless otherwise noted)

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strathead View Post
    A code of this magnitude should not be directed from a capitalistic manufacturer or installer. It should be a reaction to a requirement from the fire fighting agencies it is allegedly attempting to protect.
    There were four PIs suggesting this rule. One from a retired industry person, one from an electrical contractor, one from a fire fighter associated with the International Association of Firefighters (the largest firefighter union) and one from the safety director of a large IBEW local. As Paul has pointed out, it take a 2/3s majority vote to accept a code change and no single interest group is permitted to have more than 1/3 of the total panel members on the CMP.

    In many areas this already a common practice because of the local AHJs interpretation of the requirement that the service disconnect be nearest the point of entrance of the service conductors. They, like myself, read the word "nearest" to mean exactly that...you enter the inside of the building and run directly into or directly up or down into the service equipment.
    Don, Illinois
    (All code citations are 2017 unless otherwise noted)

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