Why, just why..

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JFletcher

Senior Member
Location
Williamsburg, VA
... do some electricians insist in/on putting j-boxes in nearly inaccessible locations? We started a t&m house remodel yesterday... the 3rd EC (1st being who put in the original cloth NM/2 prong receptacles in 1963, 2nd being someone who upgraded/added a few circuits in the late 70s) decided it would be best to put a ton (no less than 2 dozen) j-boxes in the attic. Okay, fine, I hate attics, but when I have to spider-crawl over joists to get to a box mounted less than 14" below the roof trusses, and have to look at the conductors cross-eyed because they are so close to my face, I dont consider this accessible. Maybe if you're a gnome or my size, but I know a few friends that could not physically fit into the spaces I had to get into. This a low pitched roof, less than 6/12, and even several feet from the eaves there is not much room to work.

I was told the 3rd EC and the HO had a disagreement of sorts, so the EC was kicked out/quit before work was completed. Even in the unlikely event a permit was drawn for that work, what happens when a contractor leaves (for whatever reason) mid-permit/before finals, and no one else completed the work? The j-boxes are all metal, mostly overloaded (wire fill), wires too short, and none grounded/bonded, even tho there is no original cloth 2-wire NM in the new(-ish) panel. and what I'd call inaccessible unless you are a contortionist or a small (really small) person physically.

Is this a 'suck it up, that's normal' situation or something I have a legitimate gripe on? Despite the (in)accessibility of the boxes, I'm more concerned with all new homeruns being pulled to circuits that cannot be grounded, and the plethora of things that would not meet code even 15 or 20 years ago. How do I fix this, or do I?
 

mgookin

Senior Member
Location
Fort Myers, FL
Could be worse. At least it's January.

Sounds like someone without a license either got caught or did what lots of unlicensed people do; quit while they're ahead.
 

user 100

Senior Member
Location
texas
... do some electricians insist in/on putting j-boxes in nearly inaccessible locations? We started a t&m house remodel yesterday... the 3rd EC (1st being who put in the original cloth NM/2 prong receptacles in 1963, 2nd being someone who upgraded/added a few circuits in the late 70s) decided it would be best to put a ton (no less than 2 dozen) j-boxes in the attic. Okay, fine, I hate attics, but when I have to spider-crawl over joists to get to a box mounted less than 14" below the roof trusses, and have to look at the conductors cross-eyed because they are so close to my face, I dont consider this accessible. Maybe if you're a gnome or my size, but I know a few friends that could not physically fit into the spaces I had to get into. This a low pitched roof, less than 6/12, and even several feet from the eaves there is not much room to work.

One good thing to keep in mind about renos and hard to reach jboxes- they will refeed existing cts however is convenient to them using as little nm as possible- they couldn't care less about the next bunch.

And the sloppier something is (bad or "ugly" joints/makeup, no nm connectors on the boxes, no bonding for metal boxes with later nm even tho there is an egc or its blatantly obvious one could at least be very easily routed, etc) the more likely its the artwork of a trunk slammer.
 
Location
NE (9.06 miles @5.9 Degrees from Winged Horses)
Occupation
EC - retired
I used to do a lot of rewires remodels etc. Junction boxes were put wherever I needed them, as long as they were accessible. My 32 year olds definition and my now 67 year old definition is different. That said, I can still hire 32 year olds to access them, even though I may have to import workers from the East coast.
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
Now you know why some, actually quite a few, EC's and electricians won't do remods.

I came up through the commercial/industrial/heavy industrial apprenticeship and I met many a J-man that told me if they had to do residential remods for a living they would quit the trade.

But I would much rather work in an attic like you are describing than on a man lift, three stories up, over huge furnaces with molten metal in them. Sometimes the j-boxes are stuffed in beams and just like in an attic, your face is stuffed right in them or you can't see them at all. And it's as hot as an attic with the big plus of smoke and fumes and just being bloody scary.
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
... but when I have to spider-crawl over joists to get to a box mounted less than 14" below the roof trusses, and have to look at the conductors cross-eyed because they are so close to my face, I dont consider this accessible. Maybe if you're a gnome or my size, but I know a few friends that could not physically fit into the spaces I had to get into. This a low pitched roof, less than 6/12, and even several feet from the eaves there is not much room to work.....
That's a suck it up/normal situation.
I'm more concerned with all new homeruns being pulled to circuits that cannot be grounded, and the plethora of things that would not meet code even 15 or 20 years ago. How do I fix this, or do I?
Electrical triage is something you learn hands on. You can't pass it on with typed words on a screen.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
One good thing to keep in mind about renos and hard to reach jboxes- they will refeed existing cts however is convenient to them using as little nm as possible- they couldn't care less about the next bunch.
I don't see anything wrong with that UNLESS it is known that sometime down the road some kind of modification will need to be made to that particular circuit, and really, most times there is no way to do that. I suspect the vast majority of such circuits never get modified, or don't until there is a major remodel, and in that case it is probably a gut and start over type of thing.
 

electricalist

Senior Member
Location
dallas tx
I once had an inspector tell me that accessible in a sheet rock ceiling was a hole big enough to get me with my tools on into and the j box be within arms reach. So we put an access.
Many years later i know an guy who put j boxes all in a commercial roof sofit( hows it spelt). I said not to code , his helper crawled through the whole thing to do it.
Ahj shows and says its ok. Since they obviously got to them.
Now this new generation here puts them in places I would never allow.
Maybe Im just old , fat and lazy.
Whats accessible by code?



Thanks to the Forum
 

electricalist

Senior Member
Location
dallas tx
I guess I need to ponder this more.
Having to crawl through a ceiling such as sheet rock seems like a Good way to possibly cause damage , Im too fat to be walking on top plates.
All that aside when I wire something I work my way down or to a location thats easier to get to. Thats my lazy side.

Thanks to the Forum
 

JFletcher

Senior Member
Location
Williamsburg, VA
ty all. Re: the wiring problems in the existing boxes I suppose I can use plastic, double up and move one diagonally (giving me more slack on say the top and left sides) and install a 2nd giving me more slack bottom and right, and jump the two (every j-box Ive seen so far is fed from all 4 sides). Would eliminate all the code violations, it's just ugly as sin and God help me if I am the next man to have to work on it.

"Could be worse. At least it's January."

I dont think I could do this work June-Aug. The tight space and all the biohazard (rat/squirrel droppings/urine everywhere, chewed wires too), are bad enough; add in 140* heat, and nope, just not worth it.

The crawlspace is a similar act of contortionism. I didnt realize until yesterday that, if you exhale as deeply as possible, you can crawl under ductwork/plumbing/framing that you otherwise couldnt get to. It reminded me of the early days when I joked that what I needed was a 5 year old to run thru the ceiling to pull wire. Darned child labor laws. :D
 

kenman215

Senior Member
Location
albany, ny
ty all. Re: the wiring problems in the existing boxes I suppose I can use plastic, double up and move one diagonally (giving me more slack on say the top and left sides) and install a 2nd giving me more slack bottom and right, and jump the two (every j-box Ive seen so far is fed from all 4 sides). Would eliminate all the code violations, it's just ugly as sin and God help me if I am the next man to have to work on it.

"Could be worse. At least it's January."

I dont think I could do this work June-Aug. The tight space and all the biohazard (rat/squirrel droppings/urine everywhere, chewed wires too), are bad enough; add in 140* heat, and nope, just not worth it.

The crawlspace is a similar act of contortionism. I didnt realize until yesterday that, if you exhale as deeply as possible, you can crawl under ductwork/plumbing/framing that you otherwise couldnt get to. It reminded me of the early days when I joked that what I needed was a 5 year old to run thru the ceiling to pull wire. Darned child labor laws. :D

I spent my third year of employment at the first company I worked for as "the trim guy," following the work of the three man rough crew. We did some condos, and one particular lower unit was horribly wired, 4 jumpers were missing. I had to take off the vinyl siding, cut the OSB between floors, and crawl through the floor trusses to run the missed jumpers. After doing that, everything seems accessible to me...
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
We started a t&m house remodel yesterday...

I was told the 3rd EC and the HO had a disagreement of sorts, so the EC was kicked out/quit before work was completed. Even in the unlikely event a permit was drawn for that work, what happens when a contractor leaves (for whatever reason) mid-permit/before finals, and no one else completed the work?


When you take over a job like this you need to know where it is in the permitting and inspection process.

You would not be allowed (legally) to work under the permit of another contractor and the AHJ usually will not issue a second permit for the same work until the first permit is closed or canceled.

Once the other contractor leaves and you decide to take on the job then no matter how bad the work, you are responsible to bring the work up to code.

This being a remodel there should be either a GC or a homeowner acting as GC with a remodeling permit. It's up to this person or company to make sure the work was performed by licensed contractors (where required ). If the work isn't finished this person is up the creek.

I'm not saying they will but if the final inspection is not completed ( sooner or later ) and a new CO is needed they could have the power shut off and condemn the property. It really depends on how hard the AHJ wants to get.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
I dont think I could do this work June-Aug. The tight space and all the biohazard (rat/squirrel droppings/urine everywhere, chewed wires too), are bad enough; add in 140* heat, and nope, just not worth it.


Just wait until you get into an attic in the summer when bats have been living there. It makes you wish for little problems like squirrels and rats.

Little information: If you should come upon a situation where there are bats don't try to remove them youself there may be a heavy fine so check first. Bat removel can be an expensive process so make sure it's someone else's responsibility to pay for it ( can easily run into the thousands ).
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
The crawlspace is a similar act of contortionism. I didnt realize until yesterday that, if you exhale as deeply as possible, you can crawl under ductwork/plumbing/framing that you otherwise couldnt get to.
I don't think so. Just reading that triggered my claustrophobia.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
The crawlspace is a similar act of contortionism. I didnt realize until yesterday that, if you exhale as deeply as possible, you can crawl under ductwork/plumbing/framing that you otherwise couldnt get to.

I'd be afraid if I made it through I wouldn't be able to get back out for some reason.

One time took a return air grille out of a raised floor of a church altar, to look inside the space where I was anticipating fishing some MC cable. My head went right in the hole and I got to see what I wanted to see - but then my head did not want to come back out:eek: On top of that I was the only person in the building and did not know how long that would be that way. I bet I wasn't in there as long as it seemed but could have been maybe up to five minutes trying to find a way to maneuver my head out - finally with a little resistance and some scratch marks on the ears that felt sort of like sunburn for a few days, I got out.
 

mtfallsmikey

Senior Member
25 yrs. ago, installed an HVAC system in an old abandoned house that was being renovated, old rock wool insulation, chock full of pigeon crap... all of us got sick.
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
ty all. Re: the wiring problems in the existing boxes I suppose I can use plastic, double up and move one diagonally (giving me more slack on say the top and left sides) and install a 2nd giving me more slack bottom and right, and jump the two (every j-box Ive seen so far is fed from all 4 sides). Would eliminate all the code violations, it's just ugly as sin and God help me if I am the next man to have to work on it.

"Could be worse. At least it's January."

I dont think I could do this work June-Aug. The tight space and all the biohazard (rat/squirrel droppings/urine everywhere, chewed wires too), are bad enough; add in 140* heat, and nope, just not worth it.

The crawlspace is a similar act of contortionism. I didnt realize until yesterday that, if you exhale as deeply as possible, you can crawl under ductwork/plumbing/framing that you otherwise couldnt get to. It reminded me of the early days when I joked that what I needed was a 5 year old to run thru the ceiling to pull wire. Darned child labor laws. :D

My previous employers both had "attic monkeys", guys slim and short enough to go anywhere. The other techs were most upset when those fellows moved on. :weeping:
 
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