Temporary tap while upgrading service panel

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smallfish

Senior Member
Location
Detroit
Would you please describe the reasons why it could be unsafe to tap into a premises service drop with a home-made, cord-connected, GFCI-protected receptacle box? This receptacle would be used for power tools and temporary lighting while replacing the existing panel with new after having removed power from the existing panel by removing the existing meter.
If this method is unsafe is there a method more safe?
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
I would say not safe and if you someone got injured you would be in serious trouble IMHO.

Truth is I have seen it done. I cringed when I saw it.
You won't catch me do it.
I have plenty of cordless tools and batteries. I don't feel the need to be risky like that.
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
Would you please describe the reasons why it could be unsafe to tap into a premises service drop with a home-made, cord-connected, GFCI-protected receptacle box? This receptacle would be used for power tools and temporary lighting while replacing the existing panel with new after having removed power from the existing panel by removing the existing meter.
If this method is unsafe is there a method more safe?
You will be tapping into live conductors with nothing between you and Niagara Falls to provide any short circuit or overcurrent protection.

Best thing is what Smart$ said, get a generator.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
We've used those for the past 30 years but now with battery technology and cheap generators they might not be needed anymore. It's nice to power tools, a light and a radio while you're working on the service. We would splice a few drops with a GFCI device and a 20amp fuse. If you're already working on the POCO drop while energized (which many say you shouldn't do) it's really no big deal to cut away the old service and splice on your temp power drop.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Then there is the theft of services issue - even though you likely only consume a quarter or less worth of energy in most dwelling unit upgrades.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
POCO allows us to cut and reconnect. Putting a temp drop is no big deal and much nicer then listening to a generator all day. SOP around here.

I am not telling you how to do your job but I will point out doing any of that is a direct OSHA and 70e violation.

If an employee is caught doing this the fines can be high. If the employee gets hurt while doing this the company is screwed.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I am not telling you how to do your job but I will point out doing any of that is a direct OSHA and 70e violation.

If an employee is caught doing this the fines can be high. If the employee gets hurt while doing this the company is screwed.

Same would apply to disconnect and reconnect of the drop, but for some reason POCO guys are immune to the hazards:(
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Same would apply to disconnect and reconnect of the drop, but for some reason POCO guys are immune to the hazards:(

No, the power company operates under OSHA as well but different OSHA sections apply to them.

Not to mention the fact that at least in my area power company employees do follow the safety rules and wear their PPE at all times. Very few electricians do the same.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
No, the power company operates under OSHA as well but different OSHA sections apply to them.

Not to mention the fact that at least in my area power company employees do follow the safety rules and wear their PPE at all times. Very few electricians do the same.
I realize this but electrical theory doesn't change just because you work for a POCO and neither does the associated hazards.

There are small municipal operated POCO's out in this area that the employees likely couldn't tell you what safety rules actually apply to them. As time has gone by I have seen some changes in this area as some of the old timers are retiring though.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
I realize this but electrical theory doesn't change just because you work for a POCO and neither does the associated hazards.

I disagree.

Training and following that training makes the difference.


There are small municipal operated POCO's out in this area that the employees likely couldn't tell you what safety rules actually apply to them.

And in that same area how is the safety training of electricians?

I get it, you live in the sticks a lot of this safety enforcment has not reached you yet but the OP is in CT and CLP does follow the rules.
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
We used to do it all the time. We had a box with a receptacle on one end, fed by a piece of Romex with battery charger clips on the other end.

Then a building contractor got caught messing with meters, stealing power and the like so for about 15 years the POCO told us we couldn't use the taps anymore.

Now they are back to saying it's OK, but like others have mentioned, they really aren't needed. Now that we are allowed to use the taps, no one does it.

AKAIK, OSHA doesn't have jurisdiction over small one and two man outfits.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
AKAIK, OSHA doesn't have jurisdiction over small one and two man outfits.

OSHA has jurisdiction over every employee of any size electrical contractor.

OSHA does not have jurisdiction over the owner if they are not technically an employee.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I disagree.

Training and following that training makes the difference.




And in that same area how is the safety training of electricians?

I get it, you live in the sticks a lot of this safety enforcment has not reached you yet but the OP is in CT and CLP does follow the rules.
I agree with your training comment, EC's can train just like POCO's can train. There are EC's that do contract with POCO's and do all the same tasks the POCO employees do. I don't see this as a difference because of who your employer is but rather a difference because of the task being performed.

It is live work and if it is to be done then certain safety precautions need followed. Anyone can be trained to do those tasks, authorization to do it live is what the issue is.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
I agree with your training comment, EC's can train just like POCO's can train. There are EC's that do contract with POCO's and do all the same tasks the POCO employees do. I don't see this as a difference because of who your employer is but rather a difference because of the task being performed.

It is live work and if it is to be done then certain safety precautions need followed. Anyone can be trained to do those tasks, authorization to do it live is what the issue is.

But as a rule, an ECs work is very different than a linemans and while electricity is electricity there is a huge differences in working with live parts in the wide open vs inside a switchgear. Arc flash blast is less of an issue an POCO worker is typically working from an insulted boom reducing shock hazards.



Now of course if we just look at a specific task like making up a drop the risks are the same for a EC as a POCO worker. But the safety rules are not written that specifically, for the most part ECs work is much different than a POCOs

And if you are an EC doing POCO type work I do believe you start working under those OSHA rules.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
And if you are an EC doing POCO type work I do believe you start working under those OSHA rules.
Which means you can't connect live service drops and similar activities.

Most the EC work I have seen in this area for POCO's is usually medium or high voltage work, but can see some of those EC's involved after a disaster or even in a city or town on some project that could end up involving some low voltage secondary work.
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
AKAIK, OSHA doesn't have jurisdiction over small one and two man outfits.

they have jurisdiction over *employees*. not the principal in a company.

as a sole proprietor, i can do things i can't legally direct an employee
to do, to earn my darwin award merit badge.

if i do something stupid, and have a "film at 11" moment, it's natural selection.
if i pay you, and tell you to do something stupid, and it's a similar outcome,
it's called manslaughter.

hot tapping was commonly done by field crews in POCO land, to have power
down in underground substructures for a variety of reasons. a drywall screw
thru the insulation, and alligator clips got the job done, and nobody thought
much of it, until one day, a guy inadvertently put a drywall screw into a 34.5 KV
peddler... after the memorial service, the practice fell out of favor.

a honda 2kw generator is $1,000. it's the size of a 5 gallon gas can, weighs about
the same, idles all day on a pint of fuel, and if you put it over on the other side of
the yard, largely disappears from earshot. there is no reason to hot tap for tempower
any more, added to the fact that battery tools have mostly replaced corded tools.
 
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