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Thread: counter wall space???

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by LarryFine View Post
    You could equate this to the theoretical library room with floor-to-ceiling shelving completely around the room.

    Nonetheless, the NEC does require receptacles in a kitchen. So, is this room a kitchen? Why is the room there?
    In library scenario, you can install receptacles anywhere to meet minimum receptacles in a room, if required, but you are not required to follow 3-6 spacing for walls that are covered in shelves.

    As for the kitchen, having minimum required receptacles in the kitchen and meeting 2-4 spacing requirements on a countertop in said kitchen are two different things.

    And now rereading the OP, it may be as you say. Maybe we are only concerned with getting any receptacles into the kitchen, and are already ignoring countertop spacing requirements.

    Putting the receptacles in the cabinets themselves may meet this requirement?

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    . . . but you are not required to follow 3-6 spacing for walls that are covered in shelves.
    You mean 6-12.

    Putting the receptacles in the cabinets themselves may meet this requirement?
    No, since counter-top receptacles mustn't be inside cabinets.
    Code references based on 2005 NEC
    Larry B. Fine
    Master Electrician
    Electrical Contractor
    Richmond, VA

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by LarryFine View Post
    You mean 6-12.


    No, since counter-top receptacles mustn't be inside cabinets.
    Duh, yeah, 6-12. Thanks.

    But the whole point of my question is if they are "counter-top" receptacles. I guess the question could be rephrased: "Is a kitchen required to have a counter top?"

    Isn't a SABC receptacle allowed to be inside a cabinet if it's not in the required spacing count?

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    I guess the question could be rephrased: "Is a kitchen required to have a counter top?"
    Now there's the crux.

    Isn't a SABC receptacle allowed to be inside a cabinet if it's not in the required spacing count?
    No. A receptacle may be within a cabinet, but cannot qualify as a counter-top-serving receptacle.

    An appliance barn and a microwave cubby come to mind as examples of non-qualifying receptacles.
    Code references based on 2005 NEC
    Larry B. Fine
    Master Electrician
    Electrical Contractor
    Richmond, VA

  5. #15
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    A most unique and novel install, if not completely ridiculous.

    A dwelling is not a dwelling without a kitchen, and, of all places Florida, I would not expect her configuration would pass building codes. In many locales, you cannot live in a shed or a storage unit or a place not classified as a dwelling.

    Your installation is so unique in my opinion that it may go to a court case and or changing of NEC or building codes to accommodate it.

    I saw a product a while back that allows you to install pop-up receptacles in the countertop, however they are very expensive.

    I would try to convince her to build something more standard, if for nothing else just so that it has more market appeal when she or her kids sell the house.

    I would think that most people who would be interested in buying such a house would remodel or gut the existing kitchen.

    Added: Welcome to The Forum.
    Last edited by JFletcher; 12-06-18 at 06:50 PM.
    Electricians do it until it Hertz!

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by LarryFine View Post
    ...No. A receptacle may be within a cabinet, but cannot qualify as a counter-top-serving receptacle.

    An appliance barn and a microwave cubby come to mind as examples of non-qualifying receptacles.
    Then it didn't address my question of being allowed to be inside a cabinet if not being counted as a required counter-top receptacle.

    Or it did answer the question as a yes, because we aren't talking about the required counter-top spaced receptacles.

    I think I now know the answer is that it CAN be on the same SABC as counter-top receptacles (even if none exist?) because I saw another thread where we are talking about dining room receptacles being SABCs now.

    So a kitchen can have the required two SABCs even if it has no counter-top. And then said receptacles can be anywhere, including inside the cabinets because there would be no spacing requirements if there weren't any counter-tops.

  7. #17
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    I like the idea of trying to talk her into raising the cabinets 4 inches and putting the outlets in the filler below. Maybe even leaving 6 inches from the cabinet face back to the filler. Explain that that allows her to have things on the counter without sweeping them off when the cabinets are opened.

    Also, maybe you can talk her into a row of shallow cabinets above the counter top (and up 4 inches) with taller cabinets above. Then, if the house is to be sold, the lower set could be removed, leaving standard cabinets on the wall.

  8. #18
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    Thanks for all the ideas, I too like the idea of adding a 4" filler. They do have range, sink, fridge, and the island, so if the needed to prepare food they could. pop-ups are cool but they would ruin drawer space.

    Hope everyone has a great Holiday Season this year!

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pwrthief View Post
    Thanks for all the ideas, I too like the idea of adding a 4" filler. They do have range, sink, fridge, and the island, so if the needed to prepare food they could. pop-ups are cool but they would ruin drawer space.

    Hope everyone has a great Holiday Season this year!
    Per your statement in red above, I don't think your customer has a choice. She won't get a CO because she won't get a "passed" electrical inspection. An inspector would have no choice but to fail it because what she has (red above) meets the definition of a kitchen.

    Kitchen. An area with a sink and permanent provisions for
    food preparation and cooking. (CMP-2)
    If you aim at nothing, you will hit it every time!

  10. #20
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    I never doubted it was a kitchen. Especially with the island (thanks for including that) being the counter, presumably, she should just build the other part as cabinets only, without this cabinet sitting on top of a "counter(?)" thing. Then no counter-top receptacles are required there, by any definition.

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