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Thread: Experiments

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by LarryFine View Post
    No question that energy used this way costs the POCO in lost revenue, presuming the light would be used by the farmer either way.

    My question is whether there is an actual increase in electricity supplied to the transmission line for energy harvested this way.

    Or is this just intercepting power that would otherwise be wasted in capacitance to the earth, causing no real increase in power used?
    The power loss due to fluorescent light is really in addition to the power being already lost to the surrounding by radiating HV transmission lines.

  2. #12
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    Ok. You build a water pipeline. It passes through my land. I have a pond on my land that before your pipeline was built averaged five foot deep in the middle of summer, but since you built your pipeline, averages twenty feet deep and overfills a bunch, keeping a stream throughout the year instead of just in rainy season... but you do all maintenance upon your pipeline and I have nothing to do with it.
    so now you decide I owe you for the extra water your pipes must be supplying me with? If I have no connections at all to your pipeline?

    That is basically what you are saying concerning the power... it somehow leaks enough to supply me wirelessly yet I am supposed to pay for it if it supplies me wirelessly..kinda like saying that people living beside a drive in should pay for the movie every night..
    Student of electrical codes. Please Take others advice first.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamjamma View Post
    Ok. You build a water pipeline. It passes through my land. I have a pond on my land that before your pipeline was built averaged five foot deep in the middle of summer, but since you built your pipeline, averages twenty feet deep and overfills a bunch, keeping a stream throughout the year instead of just in rainy season... but you do all maintenance upon your pipeline and I have nothing to do with it.
    so now you decide I owe you for the extra water your pipes must be supplying me with? If I have no connections at all to your pipeline?

    That is basically what you are saying concerning the power... it somehow leaks enough to supply me wirelessly yet I am supposed to pay for it if it supplies me wirelessly..kinda like saying that people living beside a drive in should pay for the movie every night..
    It's not the same. Conservation of energy says if energy is harvested from a source then it's lost from the source. In this case it's a very small amount, of course. Remember the harvesting of rounded off pennies the guys in Office Space were doing?

    The drive-in movie should build a fence if they don't want their neighbors watching for free, but they won't be getting the sound at any rate. Of course with some of the <ahem> movies that drive-ins play, is the sound all that important?

  4. #14
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    My thought is the energy lost to the ground is partially dissipated in the fluorescent tube, as an experiment it could be tested in principle with a van de Graaf. A parallel line I am not sure about, but suspect it would be acting as a transformer.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie_T View Post
    My thought is the energy lost to the ground is partially dissipated in the fluorescent tube, as an experiment it could be tested in principle with a van de Graaf. A parallel line I am not sure about, but suspect it would be acting as a transformer.
    My question is whether the energy consumed is additional energy taken from the line or a reduction in the energy otherwise lost.
    Code references based on 2005 NEC
    Larry B. Fine
    Master Electrician
    Electrical Contractor
    Richmond, VA

  6. #16
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    If I take say a coil of wire and place it in close proximity of the poco line that has a flip-flop magnetic field associated with it, the coil should produce voltage and support a load.

    So then, the question becomes, where exactly are those joules coming from? You and your coil are not the source of energy (no work put in by you). Thus, whomever is providing the input work is the one who is providing the energy you are taking.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by FionaZuppa View Post
    Thus, whomever is providing the input work is the one who is providing the energy you are taking.
    No question there. But, that doesn't directly answer my last question.
    Code references based on 2005 NEC
    Larry B. Fine
    Master Electrician
    Electrical Contractor
    Richmond, VA

  8. #18
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    190104-1911 EST

    Larry Fine:

    If you are talking about a fluorescent tube, then:
    1. The field being interacted with is the electric field which is basically a capacitor and its current is not dissipative.
    2. Add a resistance into the field, then there is a dissipative component and that draws power from the supply lines.

    If you are talking about a coil in the magnetic field, then:
    1. If no load on the coil, then no absorbed power.
    2. Put a resistive load on the coil, then thru reaction via the magnetic coupling you remove power from the transmission system.

    .

  9. #19
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    Again, I understand and agree that the energy comes from the power line. I'm asking whether the energy is an additional load on the system, or is it energy re-directed from the existing losses, with no additional system load.

    To use a water example, if i drill a tiny hole in a water supply pipe and catch the dripping drops in a bucket to use, I'm clearly causing additional water to flow and guilty of theft.

    If, on the other hand, I hang a bucket under an existing leak, and collect water that would otherwise seep into the ground or evaporate, it's not so clear that I'm stealing water.
    Code references based on 2005 NEC
    Larry B. Fine
    Master Electrician
    Electrical Contractor
    Richmond, VA

  10. #20
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    90104-2043 EST

    Larry Fine:

    I believe I answered your question.

    When we have the electric field around the power lines before the fluorescent is moved into the field we have only the capacitive current flowing. This is not a dissipative load. No power is consumed.

    When we move the fluorescent bulb into the field and it lights, then we have modified the field and addrd a resistive component to the load on the power line and that does remove energy from the power line. I have never run this experiment and don't personally know if the bulb will light.

    What I have done is use a 25 W 2 meter transmitter connected to a beam antenna to show that I can light a fluorescent out in space with no conductive connection and somewhat show the beam's beaming effect.

    .

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