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Thread: I'm seeing Mike's battle

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by __dan View Post
    .

    (it needs to be rewritten somehow)
    Earthing, Grounding, Bonding.....?

    ~RJ~

  2. #12
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    Mike is smart.

    Where did Mike go to nudge the industry besides a classroom? The Code.

    There are many books out there, but the code will have the most influence on the industry.

    You will always have palm readers and fortune tellers.

    The insurance companies run the place, and that is why the Code rules.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by electrofelon View Post
    painful.....
    Very...usually if I’m at a bookstore I will find some “How-To” electrical book and go to the grounding section. It’s always painful

  4. #14
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    Good part is it makes picking night crawlers easier.

  5. #15
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    I will say the NEC is much better now then when I started 40 years ago. Mike Holt once said if you are old I can't teach you grounding you carry too much baggage.
    I suspect it will never happen but the term EGC should be EBC. Again, Mike Holt, most of grounding is really bonding.
    And I note we all use the term ground to mean anything (what color is it and what does it do, MH) So a lot of the issues and misconceptions are our own fault, IE what size ground for a 200 amp service.
    "We have met the enemy and he is us" POGO
    Moderator-Washington State
    Ancora Imparo

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by gadfly56 View Post
    OK, so what, exactly, does running a wire from the panel to a pipe in the ground actually accomplish? I've seen the the MH video where he winds up driving a 50 foot ground rod and even with two(?) more rods in the mix still can't get a fault clearing current back to the panel.
    We live in an electrically charged world where things become "charged" from sources other than POCO power. It is these charges that ride the panel GEC to "ground". Not so much because those charges "go" to ground (as direction is not relevant), but because the grounding reservoir of charges swamps the house by many order of magnitude. This prevents the build up of potential on the bonded parts as they find equalization with the ground. And it provides a path for transient equalization...from potential impressed on the bonded parts from things like lightning.

    Although POCO power will also interface with the ground, it is using that ground as a path back to the source. And as we've noted, this path is seldom sufficient to trip the breaker...but is sufficient to kill someone. Hence, the battle. A simple earth ground will NOT protect from a house fault of POCO power. But we still need that ground to help take care of the many other potentials mother nature throws our way.

  7. #17
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    The Earth is a reference point in the code rules. Nothing more or less. Electrical systems require be attached to the Earth, but only as a reference point. The Earth would supply the point of zero voltage.

    In power circuits, metal can form a capacitor with the Earth, maybe parts of an antenna. In power circuits that effect would be something to be avoided or mitigated where found.
    Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPinVA View Post
    We live in an electrically charged world where things become "charged" from sources other than POCO power. It is these charges that ride the panel GEC to "ground". Not so much because those charges "go" to ground (as direction is not relevant), but because the grounding reservoir of charges swamps the house by many order of magnitude. This prevents the build up of potential on the bonded parts as they find equalization with the ground. And it provides a path for transient equalization...from potential impressed on the bonded parts from things like lightning.

    Although POCO power will also interface with the ground, it is using that ground as a path back to the source. And as we've noted, this path is seldom sufficient to trip the breaker...but is sufficient to kill someone. Hence, the battle. A simple earth ground will NOT protect from a house fault of POCO power. But we still need that ground to help take care of the many other potentials mother nature throws our way.
    So, by your explanation, if I had no electric service to my house of any kind, I'd still have to ground the rebar in my foundation?

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPinVA View Post
    We live in an electrically charged world where things become "charged" from sources other than POCO power. It is these charges that ride the panel GEC to "ground". Not so much because those charges "go" to ground (as direction is not relevant), but because the grounding reservoir of charges swamps the house by many order of magnitude. This prevents the build up of potential on the bonded parts as they find equalization with the ground. And it provides a path for transient equalization...from potential impressed on the bonded parts from things like lightning.

    Although POCO power will also interface with the ground, it is using that ground as a path back to the source. And as we've noted, this path is seldom sufficient to trip the breaker...but is sufficient to kill someone. Hence, the battle. A simple earth ground will NOT protect from a house fault of POCO power. But we still need that ground to help take care of the many other potentials mother nature throws our way.
    Jp, is your conclusion this is about protecting POCO equipment from lightning strikes and that is about it? Once grounding gets out of my section of the code, I put a blinder on. I don't need to be any more confused than I am already.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by gadfly56 View Post
    So, by your explanation, if I had no electric service to my house of any kind, I'd still have to ground the rebar in my foundation?
    Actually, due to a simple action that happens within the concrete foundations, the rebar is actually grounded without the need of a ground rod. Concrete is not water proof, and so any time it has moisture around it, that moisture wicks to the items within it, eventually getting to the items inside the structure, but at the same time, helping bod the metal rebar to the ground potential around the building.
    This is why the industry is starting to recommend those debonding tile sheets that you see in use in many areas, that are a rubber compound and you apply them to they concrete, then apply the tiles to them, though the industry pushes more about the waterproofing abilities of those sheets. They actually stop much of the moisture and gases from coming through the earth to the building as well. Thus the tiles in a basement do not feel damp in the mornings, and, one study so far as said, but not been proven by other studies yet, that the use of the sheets actually cuts the shock potential. Which is why so many of us in the Caribbean are watching for these studies. We know our customers walk around their homes barefoot, unplugging and plugging in electrical devices and complaining about shocks. So, we are looking for ways to help them. If a tile backer on a roll can help, why not??
    But, if you look at the codes: The rebar in the foundation can be used instead of using a Ground Rod.
    Student of electrical codes. Please Take others advice first.

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