Replacement outlets and AFCI

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Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
I was wondering:

Are any of you installing AFCI protection when you replace receptacles as per 2011 NEC.

If so what are you doing for Switched receptacles and there is not outlet ahead that is in an acceptable place?
 

rcarroll

Senior Member
I replaced outlets at my brothers house last summer. I installed TR receps & AFCI breakers. GFCI where required also.
I had to change his panel from FPE to SquareD Homeline to accommodate the breakers.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
I was wondering:

Are any of you installing AFCI protection when you replace receptacles as per 2011 NEC.

If so what are you doing for Switched receptacles and there is not outlet ahead that is in an acceptable place?


You have to do what Ron stated. Replace the receptacle and install an afci. In most cases people who I know do not use the afci unless it is inspected. I must admit I have not installed afci when I simply replace a receptacle. We need to start doing it as it is a good up sell.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
How do you upsell a breaker when only the receptacle is the problem.
Customer asks how much is a receptacle? Huh .... hum ... less than a dollar.
And you are telling me you need to also change out my switch or a breaker at 70- 100.00 for parts.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
If you have a half switched receptacle then you can either find the receptacle ahead of the device and install an afci receptacle or go back to the panel and install a afci breaker
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
So we have what customer expects to cost maybe $50 to replace a receptacle or two turn into we need a service upgrade and customer decides not to do anything about the seemingly simple problem they originally wanted to do something with.

Seems to me replacing a worn out receptacle with another standard receptacle is still a better option then leaving the worn out one that is going to contribute to a fire from a loose fitting cord cap being inserted into it, but common sense left the NEC at least 30 years ago.
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
So we have what customer expects to cost maybe $50 to replace a receptacle or two turn into we need a service upgrade and customer decides not to do anything about the seemingly simple problem they originally wanted to do something with.

Seems to me replacing a worn out receptacle with another standard receptacle is still a better option then leaving the worn out one that is going to contribute to a fire from a loose fitting cord cap being inserted into it, but common sense left the NEC at least 30 years ago.

Agreed.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
So we have what customer expects to cost maybe $50 to replace a receptacle or two turn into we need a service upgrade and customer decides not to do anything about the seemingly simple problem they originally wanted to do something with.

Seems to me replacing a worn out receptacle with another standard receptacle is still a better option then leaving the worn out one that is going to contribute to a fire from a loose fitting cord cap being inserted into it, but common sense left the NEC at least 30 years ago.


I'm glad I'm not the only one thinking that.
Thanks
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
We need to start doing it as it is a good up sell.

I would not call adding needless complication and potential headaches to an otherwise functional and safe installation a "good upsell".

Telling people they need to swap out an obsolete panel that has no issues, or spend an hour tracking down an old illegally connected neutral that was not hurting anything but the AFCI will not tolerate, there is nothing positive about it. The code has crossed the line beyond being a minimum safety standard to a driver for unecessary upselling.

I have no problem building new installations better, according to stricter codes. I take issue when today's code prevents modest improvements and maintenance with all-or-nothing statutes that result in HOs and handymen stepping in where electricians fear to tread solely because we have the natural desire to always wire to code.
 

user 100

Senior Member
Location
texas
I would not call adding needless complication and potential headaches to an otherwise functional and safe installation a "good upsell".

Telling people they need to swap out an obsolete panel that has no issues, or spend an hour tracking down an old illegally connected neutral that was not hurting anything but the AFCI will not tolerate, there is nothing positive about it. The code has crossed the line beyond being a minimum safety standard to a driver for unecessary upselling.

I have no problem building new installations better, according to stricter codes. I take issue when today's code prevents modest improvements and maintenance with all-or-nothing statutes that result in HOs and handymen stepping in where electricians fear to tread solely because we have the natural desire to always wire to code.

:thumbsup:.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
I would not call adding needless complication and potential headaches to an otherwise functional and safe installation a "good upsell".

If you want to be code compliant then it is a good upsell. It is req. by code so make some money at it or violate the NEC. I try and stay within the code requirements
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
I would not call adding needless complication and potential headaches to an otherwise functional and safe installation a "good upsell".

Telling people they need to swap out an obsolete panel that has no issues, or spend an hour tracking down an old illegally connected neutral that was not hurting anything but the AFCI will not tolerate, there is nothing positive about it. The code has crossed the line beyond being a minimum safety standard to a driver for unecessary upselling.

I have no problem building new installations better, according to stricter codes. I take issue when today's code prevents modest improvements and maintenance with all-or-nothing statutes that result in HOs and handymen stepping in where electricians fear to tread solely because we have the natural desire to always wire to code.
:thumbsup: again.
 

JFletcher

Senior Member
Location
Williamsburg, VA
.... I dont suppose you could 'forget' to look at the panel for a receptacle change? and if the panel cannot accept AFCI, then what.. a $80 receptacle change becomes a $2500 service upgrade? I agree with George; I got my next 50$ that says the HO tries to change it out, lives with it, or gets a handyman to change it rather than put the better part of a month's wages into an electrical panel.
 

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
If you have a half switched receptacle then you can either find the receptacle ahead of the device and install an afci receptacle or go back to the panel and install a afci breaker

Not at my house.

I have a 60 amp fuse panel with 4 - 120 volt fuses. One dedicated to the furnace, one to the well pump. The other two feed all the lights and receptacles.

My situation is far from unique.

Luckily, Michigan did away with the AFCI requirements, effective last month.

:thumbsup:
 

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
If you have a half switched receptacle then you can either find the receptacle ahead of the device and install an afci receptacle or go back to the panel and install a afci breaker
Or change the box to a double gang with two duplex AFCI receptacles, one switched, one not.

Cheers, Wayne
 
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