Contactor boxes over transformer

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Pizza

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
I would like to mount a 8"x8"8' long gutter above the panel on the left and have it extend over to the panel on the right butting up next to the cables running up out of it.
This gutter would run above the transformer obviously.
Now I would like to mount four lighting contactors in between the gutter and transformer on the wall.
That transformer obviously sticks out from the wall about two feet.
Can my gutter be installed like that if that transformer is out over 6" beyond the gutter above it?
If I mount the gutter above 6 1/2 feet above the floor does it through that rule out the window?
Also are lighting contactors considered electrical equipment and would they be allowed to mount right above that transformer?
I'm looking in 110.26 A 3
6c00253cfce3def8988694ee0731c5a8.jpg



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Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
I think you are going to have a "clear access" issue in getting to those contactors. Essentially if someone needs to work on them, they will be standing on or over the transformer. I'm on my phone so I don't have access to my NEC, maybe someone else can cite the section and paragraph number for this issue.
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
I think you are going to have a "clear access" issue in getting to those contactors. Essentially if someone needs to work on them, they will be standing on or over the transformer. I'm on my phone so I don't have access to my NEC, maybe someone else can cite the section and paragraph number for this issue.
This is what seems to be most relavant
110.26 Spaces About Electrical Equipment
Access and working space shall be provided and maintained
about all electrical equipment to permit ready and safe op-
eration and maintenance of such equipment.

(A) Working Space. Working space for equipment operat-
ing at 600 volts, nominal, or less to ground and likely to re-
quire examination, adjustment, servicing, or maintenance
while energized shall comply with the dimensions of
110.26(A)(1), (A)(2), and (A)(3) or as required or permitted
elsewhere in this Code.

(3) Height of Working Space. The work space shall be
clear and extend from the grade, floor, or platform to a
height of 2.0 m (6 1 ⁄ 2 ft) or the height of the equipment,
whichever is greater. Within the height requirements of this
section, other equipment that is associated with the electrical
installation and is located above or below the electrical
equipment shall be permitted to extend not more than 150
mm (6 in.) beyond the front of the electrical equipment.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
The contactors will need to be brought out from the wall to the point that the front of the contactors and the front of the transformer are within 6" of each other.
 

jumper

Senior Member
I think you are going to have a "clear access" issue in getting to those contactors. Essentially if someone needs to work on them, they will be standing on or over the transformer. I'm on my phone so I don't have access to my NEC, maybe someone else can cite the section and paragraph number for this issue.

The contactors will need to be brought out from the wall to the point that the front of the contactors and the front of the transformer are within 6" of each other.

I agree. Checking coil voltage is common IMO.
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
The contactors will need to be brought out from the wall to the point that the front of the contactors and the front of the transformer are within 6" of each other.

OK I'm confused. :?

Within the height requirements of this
section, other equipment that is associated with the electrical
installation and is located above or below the electrical
equipment shall be permitted to extend not more than 150
mm (6 in.) beyond the front of the electrical equipment.

The contactors are "other equipment" and the transformer is the "electrical equipment". So the contactors can stick out from the front of the transformer up to 6", but as I read it can live happily right on the wall. What am I missing??
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
The gutter should be able to go about anywhere it will fit. Lighting contactors and transformers don't require being worked on live so I don't see a problem with work space, but I'm not an inspector.
It is my opinion that it is likely that all electrical equipment is likely to be be worked on while energized and all electrical equipment requires 110.26(A) work spaces.
1-128 Log #1981 NEC-P01 Final Action: Reject
(110.26(A))
_______________________________________________________________
Submitter: Donald A. Ganiere, Ottawa, IL
Comment on Proposal No: 1-196
Recommendation: This proposal should be accepted.
Substantiation: The issue is the use of the word “require” in the existing text. This word limits the enforcement of the working space rules as there is nothing that “requires” someone to “examine, adjust, service, or maintain” electrical equipment while it is energized. In fact there are standards and safety rules that prohibit doing most types of work on energized electrical equipment. The elimination of the word “require” will improve the enforceability of this very important code rule.
Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement: The submitter misunderstands use of the word “require” as it is used in 110.26(A). In this context, “require” means “need”. If it is probable that examination, adjustment, servicing or maintenance will need to be performed on energized equipment, then 110.26 applies.
Number Eligible to Vote: 12
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 12
It is a rare case where you can troubleshoot electrical equipment while it is de-energized. The troubleshooting requires (needs) the power to be on.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
OK I'm confused. :?

Within the height requirements of this
section, other equipment that is associated with the electrical
installation and is located above or below the electrical
equipment shall be permitted to extend not more than 150
mm (6 in.) beyond the front of the electrical equipment.

The contactors are "other equipment" and the transformer is the "electrical equipment". So the contactors can stick out from the front of the transformer up to 6", but as I read it can live happily right on the wall. What am I missing??

If it is determined the contactors don't normally require servicing, measurements, adjustments, etc. while energized then no 110.26 working space is required. If space is required the transformer or other electrical system components like a wireway can extend into the 110.26 working space but no more then 6 inches.

The enclosure housing the contactor is what possibly requires working space, transformers generally don't require working space.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
It is my opinion that it is likely that all electrical equipment is likely to be be worked on while energized and all electrical equipment requires 110.26(A) work spaces.

It is a rare case where you can troubleshoot electrical equipment while it is de-energized. The troubleshooting requires (needs) the power to be on.
Which is a long debated issue that NEC refuses to clarify the intention on. The best we have is the fact it says "and likely to require examination, adjustment, servicing, or maintenance while energized" but that still leaves things pretty open for different interpretations of what this is supposed to mean.
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
If it is determined the contactors don't normally require servicing, measurements, adjustments, etc. while energized then no 110.26 working space is required. If space is required the transformer or other electrical system components like a wireway can extend into the 110.26 working space but no more then 6 inches.

The enclosure housing the contactor is what possibly requires working space, transformers generally don't require working space.

Ahhh, I think I understand now. Thanks!
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
OK I'm confused. :?

Within the height requirements of this
section, other equipment that is associated with the electrical
installation and is located above or below the electrical
equipment shall be permitted to extend not more than 150
mm (6 in.) beyond the front of the electrical equipment.

The contactors are "other equipment" and the transformer is the "electrical equipment". So the contactors can stick out from the front of the transformer up to 6", but as I read it can live happily right on the wall. What am I missing??
The "shall be permitted six inch" stuff means that you could have a piece of equipment twelve inches deep and a piece six inches deep on the same wall and not have a work space violation, or if you had a piece of equipment twenty four inches deep you could hang something over it eighteen inches from the wall, plus or minus, and be legal.

Infinity has a picture of a panel mounted on unistrut and hanging flush with the front of a transformer to illustrate this.
 

Pizza

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
If it is determined the contactors don't normally require servicing, measurements, adjustments, etc. while energized then no 110.26 working space is required. If space is required the transformer or other electrical system components like a wireway can extend into the 110.26 working space but no more then 6 inches.

The enclosure housing the contactor is what possibly requires working space, transformers generally don't require working space.

It's a question I will have for my inspector. Wether or not he wants to see clearance in front of the lighting contactors. When all said and done there will be about 18" of transformer from the front of the face of the contactor enclosure.
Definitely workable, but legal will be his interpretation of the article. I don't really have any other good options on where to put these contactors and building a structure from strut to bring the contactors out further would look ridiculous.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Which is a long debated issue that NEC refuses to clarify the intention on. The best we have is the fact it says "and likely to require examination, adjustment, servicing, or maintenance while energized" but that still leaves things pretty open for different interpretations of what this is supposed to mean.
The panel comment I posted is clearer language than the actual code wording:), however it remains my opinion that all electrical equipment will require troubleshooting at some point, and it is very likely that the troubleshooting will be while the equipment is energized.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
So is checking the operation of GFCI recpts and downstream protected recpts. Are we going to start putting all our countertop recpts in the front of kitchen and bathroom cabinets?
That is part of my point. The CMP refuses to make changes in 110.26 that would limit it to what equipment it applies to. The current wording makes it apply to all equipment and that is a very broad term per the Article 100 definition.
Equipment. A general term, including fittings, devices, appliances, luminaires, apparatus, machinery, and the like used as a part of, or in connection with, an electrical installation.
Maybe wording like in 110.26(F), but with some additions.
 
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