gfi protected entire bathroom

Status
Not open for further replies.

Stevenfyeager

Senior Member
Location
United States, Indiana
Occupation
electrical contractor
Is it against code to have a bathroom wired so the bath GFI outlet controls or trips the entire bathroom including all the bath lights? (I would like to GFI protect only the outlet and the vent over the shower, but cannot do it with the rough in wiring) (12-2 from outlet to switches, then 12-3 to vent/light combo then 12-2 to all the lighting). It was a homeowner rough in.
 

peter d

Senior Member
Location
New England
Only Massachusetts has an amendment forbidding the arrangement you speak of, to my knowledge. The NEC has no restriction on it.
 

GerryB

Senior Member
Is it against code to have a bathroom wired so the bath GFI outlet controls or trips the entire bathroom including all the bath lights? (I would like to GFI protect only the outlet and the vent over the shower, but cannot do it with the rough in wiring) (12-2 from outlet to switches, then 12-3 to vent/light combo then 12-2 to all the lighting). It was a homeowner rough in.
Since the vent light is over the shower maybe you can put a sw/gfi combo in the (I assume 2-gang box) and turn the fan/light on together, eliminating the feed thru from the gfi outlet. I don't think it is against code, it is the same as if the breaker tripped.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
Is it against code to have a bathroom wired so the bath GFI outlet controls or trips the entire bathroom including all the bath lights? (I would like to GFI protect only the outlet and the vent over the shower, but cannot do it with the rough in wiring) (12-2 from outlet to switches, then 12-3 to vent/light combo then 12-2 to all the lighting). It was a homeowner rough in.

Just do it the way that you want and don't worry about it. How often does a modern GFCI trip?
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
How often does a modern GFCI trip?
Indoors not so often. Lightning storms sometimes do trip them probably from transients on the lines. Outdoors they do trip more often from poor insulation on extension cords and cord plugs and caps laying in water.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Just do it the way that you want and don't worry about it. How often does a modern GFCI trip?

Personally I think it is a bad design to set it up so that if a GFCI doing the job it is intended to actually trips to limit the duration of a shock to a person that the lights go out at the same time.

So now you have a surprised, potentially injured person in a pitch black room.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
Personally I think it is a bad design to set it up so that if a GFCI doing the job it is intended to actually trips to limit the duration of a shock to a person that the lights go out at the same time.

So now you have a surprised, potentially injured person in a pitch black room.

Yes there are many scenarios but given the installation parameters of the OP using the GFCI to protect the entire room, although not the best design, isn't really a big problem and is code compliant.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Yes there are many scenarios but given the installation parameters of the OP using the GFCI to protect the entire room, although not the best design, isn't really a big problem

That is an opinion, and one I do not think an injured person sitting in the dark would share. ;)

and is code compliant.

That is a fact unless you live where they amended the rules as they have in MA.:cool:
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
That is an opinion, and one I do not think an injured person sitting in the dark would share. ;)

I've been using up a box full of PAR30 lamps in my house, every time one of those blows out it trips the CB. I know all about suddenly sitting in the dark if it happens at night. ;)
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I've been using up a box full of PAR30 lamps in my house, every time one of those blows out it trips the CB. I know all about suddenly sitting in the dark if it happens at night. ;)
I think he and Mass, are getting at the fact you might be injured and in the dark.

I also think that most incidents the GFCI trips before the user is subject to shock, but certainly can be shocked sometimes.

Throw a hair dryer or curling iron into a sink or tub full of water, and it likely trips before you reach in to get it. If you are already in the tub, you may be SOL.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
I've been using up a box full of PAR30 lamps in my house, every time one of those blows out it trips the CB. I know all about suddenly sitting in the dark if it happens at night. ;)

No surprise that while in your own bathroom while uninjured you have little issue with sudden darkness.:)

On the other hand if you are a guest, get shock off an appliance and suddenly you are in the dark you will be less impressed. You may have no idea where the door is or obstruction in the way.



But I do agree with you, it is an NEC compliant design and I also agree this issue is not a huge one. I just personally think better designs are easily accomplished.

I think he and Mass, are getting at the fact you might be injured and in the dark.

I can't speak for MA but that was what I was getting at.

I also think that most incidents the GFCI trips before the user is subject to shock, but certainly can be shocked sometimes.

Considering what people will bring in with them to take a bath, radios, Ronco food dehydrator, TVs etc. I don't think it is that much of a stretch that a person could be the final link in a ground fault path. :D

The real question is should we be saving these folks from themselves. ;)
 

peter d

Senior Member
Location
New England
Mass. requires that the primary lighting in the bathroom not be GFCI protected, but still allows NM cable above drop ceilings in all occupancies. I'm cool with that. :cool:
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
No surprise that while in your own bathroom while uninjured you have little issue with sudden darkness.:)

On the other hand if you are a guest, get shock off an appliance and suddenly you are in the dark you will be less impressed. You may have no idea where the door is or obstruction in the way.



But I do agree with you, it is an NEC compliant design and I also agree this issue is not a huge one. I just personally think better designs are easily accomplished.



I can't speak for MA but that was what I was getting at.



Considering what people will bring in with them to take a bath, radios, Ronco food dehydrator, TVs etc. I don't think it is that much of a stretch that a person could be the final link in a ground fault path. :D

The real question is should we be saving these folks from themselves. ;)
Correct, Darwin's theory stands:)
 

peter d

Senior Member
Location
New England
No surprise that while in your own bathroom while uninjured you have little issue with sudden darkness.:)

On the other hand if you are a guest, get shock off an appliance and suddenly you are in the dark you will be less impressed. You may have no idea where the door is or obstruction in the way.



But I do agree with you, it is an NEC compliant design and I also agree this issue is not a huge one. I just personally think better designs are easily accomplished.



I can't speak for MA but that was what I was getting at.



Considering what people will bring in with them to take a bath, radios, Ronco food dehydrator, TVs etc. I don't think it is that much of a stretch that a person could be the final link in a ground fault path. :D

The real question is should we be saving these folks from themselves. ;)

Why do you have to be so fanatical about the NEC all the time? ;)
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
Only Massachusetts has an amendment forbidding the arrangement you speak of, to my knowledge. The NEC has no restriction on it.

I think he and Mass, are getting at the fact you might be injured and in the dark.

I also think that most incidents the GFCI trips before the user is subject to shock, but certainly can be shocked sometimes.

Throw a hair dryer or curling iron into a sink or tub full of water, and it likely trips before you reach in to get it. If you are already in the tub, you may be SOL.


Weird that a state is taking a position and not allowing GFCI on lights.
I wonder what they are going to do when AFCI are required in Bathrooms?
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Weird that a state is taking a position and not allowing GFCI on lights.

That is not the position they are taking.


MA electrical code amendment
210.70(D). Insert an additional lettered subsection (D) to 210.70 as follows:


(D) GFCI Protection of Lighting Outlets in All Occupancies. The operation of a single GFCI
device shall not deenergize all lighting outlets in a given area.
 

jusme123

Senior Member
Location
NY
Occupation
JW
Personally I think it is a bad design to set it up so that if a GFCI doing the job it is intended to actually trips to limit the duration of a shock to a person that the lights go out at the same time.

So now you have a surprised, potentially injured person in a pitch black room.

...and what about a scenario where the actual light IS the problem?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top