Panel Over Panel

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kcallihan

New member
Location
oberlin, ohio
Attention Forum: My question is: Can you install a surface mounted panelboard over top of an existing federal pacific panel. These panels are all recessed in masonary walls at an existing church. We received a quote from eaton corp. with a replacement panel type 1R and 2R that is UL listed for these type of upgrades. However, another contractor is quoting to surface mount a panelboard on top of the existing F/P panels. The insurance company for the church is requiring the FP panels be replaced. Does the surface mounted method meet code and UL listing requirements? Thank you!!
 

USMC1302

Senior Member
Location
NW Indiana
If I were the owner, I'd want the Eaton solution initially(have had that done, and worked great). I'm not a very codeworthy, but instead of mounting over the top of existing, if that is what you meant, why can't you basically create a splice box, and mount a new panel adjacent?
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
Quite likely it does.

What you have is an enclosure embedded in the wall with no front to it. I can't see any issue off hand with mounting another enclosure over top of it.

Really ,
How do you get access to the original enclosure now buried once the panel is mounted in front.
You can't bury a condulet cover, you can't bury a junction box. How does this comply.

I know that in the old days there was a Zinsco piggback but today that would not be compliant.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Really ,
How do you get access to the original enclosure now buried once the panel is mounted in front.
You can't bury a condulet cover, you can't bury a junction box. How does this comply.

I know that in the old days there was a Zinsco piggback but today that would not be compliant.

On one hand I agree with you, on the other hand I wonder what code section we could cite to back our position?
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
Neither if those apply to cabinets which is what is being covered up.

Did you read through them or are you just saying this.

I see those existing things as electrical boxes not Cabinets. How do you see them.
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
A cabinet contains a panelboard. If you take the guts out, can you call it a box?

The title of 314 is "ARTICLE 314 Outlet, Device, Pull, and Junction Boxes; Conduit Bodies; Fittings; and Handhole Enclosures." A cabinet falls under 312.

Entertaining the idea for a moment, call it a box. 314.29 doesn't prohibit this. Are you saying the new panel is an extension ring for 314.22?

I'm with Bob - this outta be a crime, but there's no code I know to throw at it.
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
What is being discussed was done at city hall in my fair city. Probably in the eighties.

Somebody put a piano hinge on the old flush mount panel cover, ripped out the guts, mounted a new surface mount panel on the old panel cover, knocked out some one inch holes so that the old circuits could be spliced in the old panel and landed on breakers in the new.

I've worked on it, added some circuits. Pull a couple of screws, swing open the door, and you have access to all the old conduits and spliced wires.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Did you read through them or are you just saying this.

Wow, you are good. :) I did not read them at all, I was sitting at a restaurant table waiting for my wife to come back from the restroom.

I did not have to read them, I know 314 is not 312 and 312 is what applies to the cabinets panelboards are installed in.

They are listed as cabinets and the NEC tells us panelboards are installed in cabinets or cut out boxes.


From article 100.
Panelboard. A single panel or group of panel units designed
for assembly in the form of a single panel, including
buses and automatic overcurrent devices, and equipped
with or without switches for the control of light, heat, or
power circuits; designed to be placed in a cabinet or cutout
box
placed in or against a wall, partition, or other support;
and accessible only from the front.
 

GerryB

Senior Member
What is being discussed was done at city hall in my fair city. Probably in the eighties.

Somebody put a piano hinge on the old flush mount panel cover, ripped out the guts, mounted a new surface mount panel on the old panel cover, knocked out some one inch holes so that the old circuits could be spliced in the old panel and landed on breakers in the new.

I've worked on it, added some circuits. Pull a couple of screws, swing open the door, and you have access to all the old conduits and spliced wires.
Trying to picture this. So when you open the old cover with the hinge the new panel moves also?
 

GerryB

Senior Member
Attention Forum: My question is: Can you install a surface mounted panelboard over top of an existing federal pacific panel. These panels are all recessed in masonary walls at an existing church. We received a quote from eaton corp. with a replacement panel type 1R and 2R that is UL listed for these type of upgrades. However, another contractor is quoting to surface mount a panelboard on top of the existing F/P panels. The insurance company for the church is requiring the FP panels be replaced. Does the surface mounted method meet code and UL listing requirements? Thank you!!
Almost got one of those replacement panels once but changed my mind and just ripped out the old. It was in a sheet rock wall though. But it seems to me the replacement panel would be less work and also look better than the other proposal.
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
What is being discussed was done at city hall in my fair city. Probably in the eighties.

Somebody put a piano hinge on the old flush mount panel cover, ripped out the guts, mounted a new surface mount panel on the old panel cover, knocked out some one inch holes so that the old circuits could be spliced in the old panel and landed on breakers in the new.

I've worked on it, added some circuits. Pull a couple of screws, swing open the door, and you have access to all the old conduits and spliced wires.

i'd never even considered that. i can't see any reason it's not code compliant.
as long as you left enough conductor length in the back box to open it fully,
i can't think of any reason to fault it, except mike doesn't like it a whole lot.

other than that.... :p
 

p1ll1ng

Member
What is being discussed was done at city hall in my fair city. Probably in the eighties.

Somebody put a piano hinge on the old flush mount panel cover, ripped out the guts, mounted a new surface mount panel on the old panel cover, knocked out some one inch holes so that the old circuits could be spliced in the old panel and landed on breakers in the new.

I've worked on it, added some circuits. Pull a couple of screws, swing open the door, and you have access to all the old conduits and spliced wires.
Gotta see a picture of this

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
 
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