User Tag List

Page 9 of 9 FirstFirst ... 7 8 9
Results 81 to 90 of 90

Thread: Why does 277/480 cost so much?

  1. #81
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Vermont
    Posts
    2,174
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by olsondavidj View Post

    And also keep in mind that representatives from manufacturers sit on these standards committees. They hold a lot of power when it comes to standards writing, so if they thought the standards were unfair then they would be the first to lobby to change it, because it impacts their bottom dollar.
    I can recall a few names who were UL and/or CSPC emplyees while simultaneously seating a CMP

    Quote Originally Posted by drcampbell View Post

    The answer is marketing. Manufacturers set the price disproportionately higher for no deeper reason than because they can. There are thousands of buyers and dozens of sellers, so buyers have little or no power to influence the transaction price. The manufacturing cost has NO influence on the sale price. (except for creating a perception of greater value in the buyers' minds and an opportunity for the manufacturer to raise it)

    All this chatter about the physical characteristics of 480 equipment completely misses the mark.
    Truthfully, i 'market' myself daily & spit $$$ based on preceived value

    Doesn't make me a bad man.....it's simply how biz is done

    Most of that is package & presentation....

    an ex....if i may.....



    ~RJ~

  2. #82
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Simi Valley, CA
    Posts
    8,526
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Coppersmith View Post
    My micro-economics instructor would say the general answer to all such questions is "the seller sets the price to maximize income."

    Price x units sold = gross sales. The higher the price, the less units will sell. So there is a sweet spot that maximizes gross sales. This is effected by what the competitors are doing. If the small number of competitors who are capable of manufacturing circuit breakers all either collude (price fix) or independently observe each other (like airlines do) and nobody breaks ranks, they can keep prices elevated until a new cheaper competitor arrives on the scene or a cheaper alternative is found. In the mean time all you can do is pay what they are charging.
    Yep, I would guess that the number of 120/240 breakers sold vs 277/480 is maybe 10 to 1 or could be as high as 100 to 1 or maybe more.
    I can build anything you want if you draw a picture of it on the back of a big enough check.

    There's no substitute for hard work....but that doesn't mean I'm going to give up trying to find one.

    John Childress
    Electrical Inspector
    IAEI / CEI / C10
    Certified Electrical Inspector

  3. #83
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    8,805
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by romex jockey View Post
    I can recall a few names who were UL and/or CSPC emplyees while simultaneously seating a CMP



    Truthfully, i 'market' myself daily & spit $$$ based on preceived value

    Doesn't make me a bad man.....it's simply how biz is done

    Most of that is package & presentation....

    an ex....if i may.....



    ~RJ~



    I hope your getting a good deal on that mostly used role of electrical tape when buying it that way.
    I'm in over my head...

  4. #84
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    North of the 65 parallel
    Posts
    2,205
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by mbrooke View Post
    I hope your getting a good deal on that mostly used role of electrical tape when buying it that way.
    I'm lost. What role is the electrical tape using?

    I've always expected the role of a good buddy that always sticks by you.
    Without data you’re just another person with an opinion – Edwards Deming

  5. #85
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    NE Nebraska
    Posts
    40,165
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by cowboyjwc View Post
    Yep, I would guess that the number of 120/240 breakers sold vs 277/480 is maybe 10 to 1 or could be as high as 100 to 1 or maybe more.
    My guess is similar, but limited to single pole 30 amp or less and two pole 60 amp or less. I'd guess the difference isn't nearly as big for three pole 100 amp and less. Get much over 100 amps and especially over 225 amps and you might be looking at breakers that are rated 600 volts anyway.
    I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

  6. #86
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    (44.057116, -123.103394)
    Posts
    477
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by mbrooke View Post
    Correct- however 22 kaic THQL breakers are rated 9 kaic at 240 volts, and would probably be 9-7 kaic at 277 volts. Similarly the way 10kaic breakers are rated 5ka at 240 volts.



    See page 3:


    http://apps.geindustrial.com/publibr...7927%7Cgeneric








    Quote Originally Posted by mbrooke View Post
    And for the record want to say this: I am questioning a 100 year old standard which from what I do know holds less basis in reality like it once did. With the proliferation of solar and data centers I think UL's listing for paneboards and breakers needs to be re-evaluated. I am in the field of thought that modern panel-boards as they exist can handle higher voltages L-L without dielectric breakdown and without hazard throughout their in service life. The standards based on legacy material and legacy systems none existent or less common today.

    It is known that:

    1) UL standards restrict equipment to a lower voltage where the same identical equipment is legally allowed on higher system voltages outside the US. There are no reported issues or loss of equipment life.

    2) UL refuses to acknowledge the legitimacy of IEC 60898 and IEC 60947 as branch over current protection, but does so only as supplemental protection.

    Where this becomes a matter of public interest being that it raises the price of data center and solar installations inside the US. More money is spent on larger, bulkier, more expensive equipment that offers no advantage to life and property.


    There is also the issue of OCPD cost, some breakers being nothing more then a few extra plates within the arc chute to raise AIC yet end up tripling the price of the OCPD. Though this is more a manufacter's issue of setting cost rather then a UL or code issue and I will keep it out of the conversation for now.
    Perhaps what were learning here is we need to start converting to 415Y240 Volt systems in North America?
    A) A bigger market would mean lower prices.
    B) Its a lower voltage than 480 so existing gear could probably be utilized at the lower voltages.

    I will also note there have been more than a few project we have done 3 phase 240V delta instead of 208 or 480 due to 240V equipment and cost of 480V panels.
    Comments based on 2017 NEC unless otherwise noted.

  7. #87
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    8,805
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by tortuga View Post
    Perhaps what were learning here is we need to start converting to 415Y240 Volt systems in North America?
    A) A bigger market would mean lower prices.
    B) Its a lower voltage than 480 so existing gear could probably be utilized at the lower voltages.

    I will also note there have been more than a few project we have done 3 phase 240V delta instead of 208 or 480 due to 240V equipment and cost of 480V panels.

    I will just say this: 99.5% of our 240 volt panels and breakers will work fine at 415 volts as evidenced by overseas installations utilizing identical equipment.


    Only difference being 10kaic slash rated breakers will be rated 5ka and 22kaic slash rated breakers 10 kaic. 3 phase 240 volt (straight) rated breakers will remain the same.

    Granted 22kaic breakers are more expensive, but with fewer circuits over all the cost can be partly offset.

    120-277 volt lighting will handle 240 volts without issues, and most 480 volt motors will handle 415 volts as evidenced by the same reconfigurable motors running on 208 volt supplies.

    Only hurdle with be the implementation in 230 volt consumer goods.


    But when all is said and done the elimination of step down transformers and cost of 240 volt gear vs 480 volt gear will result in substantially cheaper and more compact installations.

    I'd just be happy if said 240 volt gear could be used in data centers.
    I'm in over my head...

  8. #88
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    (44.057116, -123.103394)
    Posts
    477
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by mbrooke View Post
    I will just say this: 99.5% of our 240 volt panels and breakers will work fine at 415 volts as evidenced by overseas installations utilizing identical equipment.


    Only difference being 10kaic slash rated breakers will be rated 5ka and 22kaic slash rated breakers 10 kaic. 3 phase 240 volt (straight) rated breakers will remain the same.

    Granted 22kaic breakers are more expensive, but with fewer circuits over all the cost can be partly offset.

    120-277 volt lighting will handle 240 volts without issues, and most 480 volt motors will handle 415 volts as evidenced by the same reconfigurable motors running on 208 volt supplies.

    Only hurdle with be the implementation in 230 volt consumer goods.


    But when all is said and done the elimination of step down transformers and cost of 240 volt gear vs 480 volt gear will result in substantially cheaper and more compact installations.

    I'd just be happy if said 240 volt gear could be used in data centers.
    Yeah I doubt we will ever get 230V consumer voltage. 220Y127 instead of 208Y120 is more likely as utilities are doing that in south america. (127 is still within ANSI spec.)
    There is no reason you cant use 3 phase 240/120 delta in a data center. Servers can run off 240V L-L there is a little switch on the back of most servers that says 115/230 and some auto detect voltage range 100-240 similar to lighting.
    I wonder if anyone ever proposed a code change to 220.5 adding 415Y240 as a standard voltage for calculations? I have installed such systems in the US, not in a very long time but they do exist here.
    Comments based on 2017 NEC unless otherwise noted.

  9. #89
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Cherry Valley NY, Seattle, WA
    Posts
    5,333
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I would love to see 120 and 208 go away. Too low.
    Ethan Brush - East West Electric. NY, WA. MA

    "You can't generalize"

  10. #90
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    8,805
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by tortuga View Post
    Yeah I doubt we will ever get 230V consumer voltage. 220Y127 instead of 208Y120 is more likely as utilities are doing that in south america. (127 is still within ANSI spec.)
    There is no reason you cant use 3 phase 240/120 delta in a data center. Servers can run off 240V L-L there is a little switch on the back of most servers that says 115/230 and some auto detect voltage range 100-240 similar to lighting.
    I wonder if anyone ever proposed a code change to 220.5 adding 415Y240 as a standard voltage for calculations? I have installed such systems in the US, not in a very long time but they do exist here.


    You can use 240/120 delta in a data center, but you need transformers which are capitol cost and wasted energy. You also take up 2 spaces instead of one for breakers. By having 240/415Y at the service you greatly simplify things while increasing reliability.

    The only one slowing things down is UL. Heck you can get 240/415 volt breakers from Home Depot but you can't use them for protecting branch circuits.


    https://www.homedepot.com/p/ASI-20-A...-307361367-_-N


    https://www.homedepot.com/p/Siemens-...3325/302742199
    I'm in over my head...

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •