AFCI breakers

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Smash

Senior Member
Aren't these a requirement for new construction ? I have been doing work for realitors in city of Phila mostly row homes 50plus yrs old. Some have knob and tube most had there brother in law or someone change a receptacle or two along the way, get a reversed polarity, here old appliance there, handyman connections etc. whatever. I have a home inspector who is asking for AFCI breakers which I already know the client can't afford yet alone the headache and can of worms it will create with nuisance tripping if they hold at all. Basicly the question is are they mandatory when selling your home or is this guy just trying to get more money for his client ?
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Aren't these a requirement for new construction ? I have been doing work for realitors in city of Phila mostly row homes 50plus yrs old. Some have knob and tube most had there brother in law or someone change a receptacle or two along the way, get a reversed polarity, here old appliance there, handyman connections etc. whatever. I have a home inspector who is asking for AFCI breakers which I already know the client can't afford yet alone the headache and can of worms it will create with nuisance tripping if they hold at all. Basicly the question is are they mandatory when selling your home or is this guy just trying to get more money for his client ?
HI's are nothing more then someone that generates a report card that can be used as a bargaining tool between buyer and seller, they can't force you to do anything just make suggestions of what may need attention in the house.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
HI's are nothing more then someone that generates a report card that can be used as a bargaining tool between buyer and seller, they can't force you to do anything just make suggestions of what may need attention in the house.

Sometimes these HI imply that things be done as they are required and there is no option.
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
Aren't these a requirement for new construction ?


They are, unless upgrading exiting wiring or devices.



I have been doing work for realitors in city of Phila mostly row homes 50plus yrs old. Some have knob and tube most had there brother in law or someone change a receptacle or two along the way, get a reversed polarity, here old appliance there, handyman connections etc. whatever. I have a home inspector who is asking for AFCI breakers which I already know the client can't afford yet alone the headache and can of worms it will create with nuisance tripping if they hold at all. Basicly the question is are they mandatory when selling your home or is this guy just trying to get more money for his client ?




No, nothing a home inspector says or does is mandatory. He can only make recommendations and observations and nothing more. Unfortunately some HIs come across as an authority figure or make false assertions.
 
Location
NE (9.06 miles @5.9 Degrees from Winged Horses)
Occupation
EC - retired
HIs make the recommendations, the seller can make they changes if they want, and the potential buyer may refuse to purchase if they aren't made.

Balancing act.

We installed dual function AFCI/GFCI units at my in-laws home instead of the GFCIs the HI "suggested". Cheaper in the long run for this home.
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
I have a home inspector who is asking for AFCI breakers which I already know the client can't afford yet alone the headache and can of worms it will create with nuisance tripping if they hold at all. Basicly the question is are they mandatory when selling your home or is this guy just trying to get more money for his client ?

The one caution, for you, is to tease out of the situation whether the legally binding part of the Purchase Agreement(s) between the Buyer and Seller have language the requires compliance with the HI's report, or with the points of the HI's report that the Parties To The Sale have already agreed to adhere to, in my opinion. In the last year I've seen that situation happen in my work area.

Otherwise, I agree with the others in this thread, the HI has the ability to observe and report, and is motivated to make "recommendations" that have no basis in actual local ordinance.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
Aren't these a requirement for new construction ?

They are, unless upgrading exiting wiring or devices.

Balancing act.

We installed dual function AFCI/GFCI units at my in-laws home instead of the GFCIs the HI "suggested". Cheaper in the long run for this home.


That upgrading existing wiring or devices that mbrooke mentioned can be as little as replaceing a receptacle.

When a home inspector suggest that you install GFCI protection in the kitchen and bath you are pretty much obligated to install arc fault protection.

If the buyer of one of these older homes plans to rent it out on one of the government assistance type programs like section eight then they normally inspect the property and will require that all the old loose tension receptacles be replaced ( I have seen 90 percent fail ) and then you end up haveing to arc fault protect the whole house.

This home inspector may not be as dumb as everyone thinks and may just be looking out for his client.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
The one caution, for you, is to tease out of the situation whether the legally binding part of the Purchase Agreement(s) between the Buyer and Seller have language the requires compliance with the HI's report, or with the points of the HI's report that the Parties To The Sale have already agreed to adhere to, in my opinion. In the last year I've seen that situation happen in my work area.
In those cases you don't necessarily have issues with laws but rather violations of what is stated in a contract. If as a seller you don't want to do something a HI requests, you need to make that clear before the contract is written up and include that information in the contract. Once both parties sign that contract both have to do what they agreed to or else go through more paperwork and agreement from the other party to make any changes.
 

Smash

Senior Member
The one caution, for you, is to tease out of the situation whether the legally binding part of the Purchase Agreement(s) between the Buyer and Seller have language the requires compliance with the HI's report, or with the points of the HI's report that the Parties To The Sale have already agreed to adhere to, in my opinion. In the last year I've seen that situation happen in my work area.

Otherwise, I agree with the others in this thread, the HI has the ability to observe and report, and is motivated to make "recommendations" that have no basis in actual local ordinance.

The HI is implying that it's the NEC that requires AFCIs but I believe it's only code for new constructions, additions, that sort of thing. Older homes get grandfathered unless major repairs are getting done. Is that correct ??
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
The HI is implying that it's the NEC that requires AFCIs but I believe it's only code for new constructions, additions, that sort of thing. Older homes get grandfathered unless major repairs are getting done. Is that correct ??


A HI is not allowed to do a code inspection. He/she only gives opinions on conditions that may affect the home.

What is grandfathered an what is not is for the local authorities.

When it comes to the NEC then Arc Fault protection is required to upgrade (change out) a receptacle. You can use either an Arc Fault receptacle or an Arc Fault breaker.

If a HI were to see all new receptacles in a house for sale he could easily assume they were installed recently and that Arc Fault protection should have been provide at the time of install.

I was at a house the other day that had a new panel and much rewiring and not a single ARC Fault breaker or receptacle. I asked how they had accomplished this and they said they didn't get a permit. This house is going on the market and a home inspector could write this fact up. All those new T/R receptacles is a dead give away and they will advertise as a rewired house to boot.
 
"When it comes to the NEC then Arc Fault protection is required to upgrade (change out) a receptacle"

Growler, can you please provide the NEC reference for this? Perhaps I'm mistaken, but my understanding was a direct replacement (like for like) did not mandate an upgrade to AFCI.

Changing from 2 wire to 3 wire, or adding another
receptacle to an existing circuit would require AFCI.

Of course, here in CA, we're actually on the 2011 NEC, but I'd like to educate myself for the future.

Thanks
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
The HI is implying that it's the NEC that requires AFCIs but I believe it's only code for new constructions, additions, that sort of thing. Older homes get grandfathered unless major repairs are getting done. Is that correct ??

Beginning with the 2011 NEC, the expansion of AFCI begins to apply to existing branch circuits that have certain types of work done.

Your profile says you are under the 2011 NEC. 406.4(D)(4) is new and applies to replacements of existing devices on existing branch circuits.

210.12(B), modifications of existing wiring, might also be in play. . . Those are the two ways AFCI might get invoked by any necessary repairs. . . depending upon what they are.

But, in both these cases, a bit of maintenance work or new work has to occur to invoke the AFCI requirement. AFCI being required all by itself is not happening yet in existing wiring.

So, in answer to your question, technically, AFCI is NOT only in new construction.
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
can you please provide the NEC reference for this?

Take a read of 406.4(D)(4) in the 2011 NEC, it came into effect Jan. 1, 2014. Unless you have other ordinance to the contrary, from the State or locale, 406.4(D)(4) says replacements get AFCI if they are in an area described in 210.12.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
"When it comes to the NEC then Arc Fault protection is required to upgrade (change out) a receptacle"

Growler, can you please provide the NEC reference for this? Perhaps I'm mistaken, but my understanding was a direct replacement (like for like) did not mandate an upgrade to AFCI.

Take a read of 406.4(D)(4) in the 2011 NEC, it came into effect Jan. 1, 2014. Unless you have other ordinance to the contrary, from the State or locale, 406.4(D)(4) says replacements get AFCI if they are in an area described in 210.12.


The reason " I think" people just assume they are grandfathered in is because you don't see many of them actually being used.

I really don't think most electricians are bothering to install arc faults if they only replace one or two receptacles and don't need an inspection.
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
The reason " I think" people just assume they are grandfathered in is because you don't see many of them actually being used.

I really don't think most electricians are bothering to install arc faults if they only replace one or two receptacles and don't need an inspection.

But in this thread the OP is on the edges of the change of ownership of a home. I'm used to there being a lot of documentation of the building, as well as official scrutiny, even when no work has to happen.
 

Smash

Senior Member
A HI is not allowed to do a code inspection. He/she only gives opinions on conditions that may affect the home.

What is grandfathered an what is not is for the local authorities.

When it comes to the NEC then Arc Fault protection is required to upgrade (change out) a receptacle. You can use either an Arc Fault receptacle or an Arc Fault breaker.

If a HI were to see all new receptacles in a house for sale he could easily assume they were installed recently and that Arc Fault protection should have been provide at the time of install.

I was at a house the other day that had a new panel and much rewiring and not a single ARC Fault breaker or receptacle. I asked how they had accomplished this and they said they didn't get a permit. This house is going on the market and a home inspector could write this fact up. All those new T/R receptacles is a dead give away and they will advertise as a rewired house to boot.

We have yet another loop hole here in PA they have not adopted the new code. Still using 2008 I however have adopted all current AFCI codes just a tough sell to some GC builders. The old school guys don't budget that stuff in then I look like the bad guy.
 

Smash

Senior Member
The reason " I think" people just assume they are grandfathered in is because you don't see many of them actually being used.

I really don't think most electricians are bothering to install arc faults if they only replace one or two receptacles and don't need an inspection.

No need to even think on that one I guarantee there not. Don't even carry them on there truck which tells me they have no intention on honoring said code.
 

jaylectricity

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
Occupation
licensed journeyman electrician
A recent home inspection turned up a few issues. Legitimate ones like the water ground was not attached to the water pipe, three NM cables came through a knockout without a connector in the panel, a couple of empty KOs needed to be plugged.

BUT...
"Replace older sealing compound on meter socket" was ridiculous because it was intact and doing it's job.
"A 15amp circuit is being protected by a 20amp breaker" in which the "15amp circuit" was a pig tail to energize the doorbell transformer piggy-backed on a 20 amp circuit"

The very best one was "Panel cover screw missing." Well, it wasn't missing until the HI dropped it on the floor. I found it on the brand new, clean carpet in front of the panel with absolutely nothing around to obscure it.
 
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