Energized at rough, hazzard?

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chris kennedy

Senior Member
Location
Miami Fla.
Occupation
60 yr old tool twisting electrician
We have two guys at the shop that have been there 10+ years. Their SOP is to land wires on breakers in energized panels at the rough. These panels are also used for temp power during construction.

This is what I have been seeing more often. Heavy tools used during construction trip breakers. The other subs go to a panel and turn every breaker on so they can return to work.

This energizes a pile of boxes, whips ect that are not safed off. When asked about this practice both respond "the subs shouldn't be touching the breakers".

This just seems insane to me, does anyone else here practice this?

Thanks

(drives me nuts!!!)
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
We have two guys at the shop that have been there 10+ years. Their SOP is to land wires on breakers in energized panels at the rough. These panels are also used for temp power during construction.

This is what I have been seeing more often. Heavy tools used during construction trip breakers. The other subs go to a panel and turn every breaker on so they can return to work.

This energizes a pile of boxes, whips ect that are not safed off. When asked about this practice both respond "the subs shouldn't be touching the breakers".

This just seems insane to me, does anyone else here practice this?

Thanks

(drives me nuts!!!)

it's commonly done around here on smaller jobs.
if done right, is it safe? usually.
is it done wrong? usually.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
If your shop, as the EC, is providing temp power to other trades that should not be done through energized panels that are not completely wired. Or else you need to lock all breakers other than those deliberately used for temp power.
If they give access to those panels it is their responsibility to make them safe.
If you lock and or tag a few individual breakers, that is different from saying "You may only touch these two (unmarked?) breakers."
JMO.
 

JFletcher

Senior Member
Location
Williamsburg, VA
I agree with GoldDigger. I dont install any more breakers at rough in than required for temp lights, certain outlets to be powered for other trades, maybe the heat/ac if thats rtg. . Yes, other trades shouldnt be in the panel, however, my feeling is that it should be as idiotproof as possible so when someone trips a breaker and flips them all on, there is no danger of energizing unfinished circuits, probably to myself more than anyone else. Lockouts are just as good, maybe better in some cases.

Id rather get a call to provide power at [location x] than one for someone getting shocked.
 

jusme123

Senior Member
Location
NY
Occupation
JW
If your shop, as the EC, is providing temp power to other trades that should not be done through energized panels that are not completely wired. Or else you need to lock all breakers other than those deliberately used for temp power.
If they give access to those panels it is their responsibility to make them safe.
If you lock and or tag a few individual breakers, that is different from saying "You may only touch these two (unmarked?) breakers."
JMO.

...electricians should be the only ones flipping breakers in any scenario, whether locked out, tripped, or otherwise.
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
We have two guys at the shop that have been there 10+ years. Their SOP is to land wires on breakers in energized panels at the rough. These panels are also used for temp power during construction.

This is what I have been seeing more often. Heavy tools used during construction trip breakers. The other subs go to a panel and turn every breaker on so they can return to work.

This energizes a pile of boxes, whips ect that are not safed off. When asked about this practice both respond "the subs shouldn't be touching the breakers".

This just seems insane to me, does anyone else here practice this?

Thanks

(drives me nuts!!!)
Dope slaps with a hand in a glove reinforced with lead and spikes are in order for these two guys. Caning them would not be too severe of an action to persue. Lather, rinse, repeat.
 

drcampbell

Senior Member
Location
The Motor City, Michigan USA
Occupation
Registered Professional Engineer
electricians should be the only ones flipping breakers ...

Ideally, lots of protocols should be respected. In the real world, we all know they're not. Lock-out/tag-out protocols wouldn't even exist if they were.

When erecting a bridge, for example, it's necessary to assure that it won't collapse. Not merely when everything's complete but also at each & every intermediate stage of construction. (it often requires considerable thought to assure that a half-built bridge will support itself)

I can't think of any reason why we shouldn't also assure that our work is safe at each & every intermediate stage. If flipping a breaker would create a hazard, either lock it out, don't hook it up or don't install it yet. Changing the workflow sequence is trivial and the consequences are grave.
 

Strathead

Senior Member
Location
Ocala, Florida, USA
Occupation
Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
We have two guys at the shop that have been there 10+ years. Their SOP is to land wires on breakers in energized panels at the rough. These panels are also used for temp power during construction.

This is what I have been seeing more often. Heavy tools used during construction trip breakers. The other subs go to a panel and turn every breaker on so they can return to work.

This energizes a pile of boxes, whips ect that are not safed off. When asked about this practice both respond "the subs shouldn't be touching the breakers".

This just seems insane to me, does anyone else here practice this?

Thanks

(drives me nuts!!!)

At this point in time, I would consider this a violation of OSHA standards. Each and every breaker, that controls a circuit that is not complete, or someone is working on must be locked out. And nitty gritty, EVERY person including a 1st year apprentice who can potentially touch the wiring must hang their own lockout and control the access. Since this isn't realistic, it is better to set a company policy that the wires won't be landed until the circuit is complete, period.

Another suggestion: I require a job site safety meeting just prior to energizing permanent power. At that time, I inform every person on the job site that, if any unauthorized person touches a circuit breaker, I will personally turn off all power to the job site and hang my own lock. I will not remove it until the Resident of my company and the president of the General Contractor come to an agreement that the job is safe. To this date, I have never had a GC that didn't back me up. One other thing, is that in return I promise that any person with a power problem, can stop any electrician and I commit my company to immediately, without delay, troubleshoot and fix any temporary power problem.

it has always worked for me.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
I would think that if these guys have been doing electrical work for at least 10 years they would know better.

Had they been working for a number of different companies in the last 10 years then somewhere alone the line they would have been chewed out or fired for this type of unsafe practice.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
Caning them would not be too severe of an action to persue. Lather, rinse, repeat.

There really needs to be some sort of company policy reguarding electrical safety and then you could fire them for breaking the rules. To protect the company these safety rules need to be in the company handbook.
 

GerryB

Senior Member
We have two guys at the shop that have been there 10+ years. Their SOP is to land wires on breakers in energized panels at the rough. These panels are also used for temp power during construction.

This is what I have been seeing more often. Heavy tools used during construction trip breakers. The other subs go to a panel and turn every breaker on so they can return to work.

This energizes a pile of boxes, whips ect that are not safed off. When asked about this practice both respond "the subs shouldn't be touching the breakers".

This just seems insane to me, does anyone else here practice this?

Thanks

(drives me nuts!!!)
Don't know if you are talking comm or resi. In a house for example when the main service is in the temp goes. So you run home runs and spot some power for the workers. But before the sheet rock I will have energized everything to test it. And everything will be safed off. Some inspectors (most) want to see things spliced and capped off on the rough. Doesn't mean you have to leave it on but I would think your insurance would cover you if there is no CO yet. Also a lot of times we hang a temp socket off a lighting outlet and throw in a switch. So you pretty much have lots of circuits that are energized before the rock. And personally, if they cut a wire they will know about it and maybe even tell me so I can fix it.
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
There really needs to be some sort of company policy reguarding electrical safety and then you could fire them for breaking the rules. To protect the company these safety rules need to be in the company handbook.
I know the type of electrician under discussion here, arrogant little cusses. I have little patience for them.
 

rippledipple

Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Electrical contractor
temp cirs

temp cirs

There really needs to be some sort of company policy reguarding electrical safety and then you could fire them for breaking the rules. To protect the company these safety rules need to be in the company handbook.
I would only connect 2 circuits at the most, if they want temp lighting they should bring their own cords.
 

luckylerado

Senior Member
I require a job site safety meeting just prior to energizing permanent power. At that time, I inform every person on the job site that, if any unauthorized person touches a circuit breaker, I will personally turn off all power to the job site and hang my own lock. I will not remove it until the Resident of my company and the president of the General Contractor come to an agreement that the job is safe. To this date, I have never had a GC that didn't back me up. One other thing, is that in return I promise that any person with a power problem, can stop any electrician and I commit my company to immediately, without delay, troubleshoot and fix any temporary power problem.

This is a good policy. I like it.:thumbsup:
 
We have two guys at the shop that have been there 10+ years. Their SOP is to land wires on breakers in energized panels at the rough. These panels are also used for temp power during construction.

This is what I have been seeing more often. Heavy tools used during construction trip breakers. The other subs go to a panel and turn every breaker on so they can return to work.

This energizes a pile of boxes, whips ect that are not safed off. When asked about this practice both respond "the subs shouldn't be touching the breakers".

This just seems insane to me, does anyone else here practice this?

Thanks

(drives me nuts!!!)


You are correct. That is absolutely insane, unsafe and unprofessional.
 
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