User Tag List

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 23

Thread: 2014 NEC, 406.4(D)(2) Non–Grounding-Type Receptacles.

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Union, KY, USA
    Posts
    222
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by LarryFine View Post
    Agreed. It does require that the power source has a grounded conductor.
    Your comment bothers my Sense of Reality-- I thought the GFCI just sensed the difference between the outgoing current on the hot lead compared to the incoming current on the neutral lead. I didn't think it required a grounded conductor at the power source.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    4,119
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by PaulMmn View Post
    Your comment bothers my Sense of Reality-- I thought the GFCI just sensed the difference between the outgoing current on the hot lead compared to the incoming current on the neutral lead. I didn't think it required a grounded conductor at the power source.
    The neutral from the source is the Grounded Conductor and is required for proper operation of a Ground Fault Receptacle.


    JAP>

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    4,119
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Don't confuse "Grounded Conductor" or Neutral with an "Equipment Grounding Conductor".

    JAP>

  4. #14
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Richmond, Virginia
    Posts
    25,391
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by PaulMmn View Post
    Your comment bothers my Sense of Reality-- I thought the GFCI just sensed the difference between the outgoing current on the hot lead compared to the incoming current on the neutral lead. I didn't think it required a grounded conductor at the power source.
    Without a grounded circuit conductor, a contact between a hot wire and a grounded surface will not create a current difference. The hot wire wouldn't carry more current than the neutral, because there is no pathway for current around the current-sensing ring that both line conductors pass through.

    Remember why plug-in GFCI testers don't work on non-grounding receptacles? It's because the plug-in tester has no access to the neutral ahead of the current-sensing ring, so it can't create an artificial shock condition using a resistor like the one used for testing inside GFCI receptacles and breakers.

    A GFCI device serves no purpose and will not function on a non-grounded power source.
    Code references based on 2005 NEC
    Larry B. Fine
    Master Electrician
    Electrical Contractor
    Richmond, VA

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Union, KY, USA
    Posts
    222
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    How about a 240 volt GFCI-- Only neutral involved is in the breaker box to power the electronics in the GFCI. Black wire out, black wire in; no neutral anywhere; neither black is grounded. GFCI still knows when there's a fault.

    Several interesting threads from the fora:

    From https://www.ecmweb.com/content/think-gfci

    From closed thread https://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=158467

    From closed thread https://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=102515

    From closed thread https://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=66292

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Bremerton, Washington
    Posts
    8,175
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    The Code Making panel determined it would be safer to have a non grounded outlet replaced by a GFCI than to have someone cut off the ground in the cord cap.
    Moderator-Washington State
    Ancora Imparo

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    4,119
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by PaulMmn View Post
    How about a 240 volt GFCI-- Only neutral involved is in the breaker box to power the electronics in the GFCI. Black wire out, black wire in; no neutral anywhere; neither black is grounded. GFCI still knows when there's a fault.

    Several interesting threads from the fora:

    From https://www.ecmweb.com/content/think-gfci

    From closed thread https://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=158467

    From closed thread https://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=102515

    From closed thread https://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=66292

    In that scenario the GFCI is monitoring the 2 phase conductors.


    JAP>

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    4,119
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    The Neutral connection in the Panel is needed to energize the electronics inside of it to allow it to do so.

    JAP>

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Union, KY, USA
    Posts
    222
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by jap View Post
    The Neutral connection in the Panel is needed to energize the electronics inside of it to allow it to do so. JAP>
    Yes, but neither of the conductors the GFCI is monitoring is grounded. The neutral in the panel is just for the electronics.

    Likewise, for a 120 volt GFCI, it wouldn't care if either of the conductors it is monitoring are grounded or not. The 120 volt model wouldn't care if the electronics were powered by a 110-volt DC battery!

    IMHO.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Clark County, NV
    Posts
    2,222
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by jap View Post
    The Neutral connection in the Panel is needed to energize the electronics inside of it to allow it to do so.
    But that would just be a design issue of the electronics inside, not a fundamental function of how it works, right?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •