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Thread: Shop Drawings

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    How about the time it takes to determine that it's acceptable? The bidder just assumes the specifier should do this without even asking?
    That is a good point, although in a way, Larry is right that I would have spent time reviewing any substitutions. And I actually saved time because I didn't have to go looking for equals. They were basically handed to me.

    I see Charlie's point about not making it to easy for the contractor. But that would probably take more of my time, and I'm not sure it would really accomplish anything.

    It is a different area than we normally work in - even out of state.

    I'm on the fence also.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve66 View Post
    It is a different area than we normally work in - even out of state.
    What state is it in?
    I'm offended.

  3. #13
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    I completely agree with the possible benefits of the substitution. The only concern here is that the request for substitution was not made prior to bidding, and during the time the specifier requested for substitutes to be requested and approved, but just put in there anyway, after that time period that the specifier may have desired to do research on such substitutions.

    Did the bid make a point of showing it as a substitution, or was it just put in there and it was on the customer to even notice it was a substitution?

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by charlie b View Post
    I would not let this go without causing the contractor at least a modicum of pain. I would at least require the contractor to submit cut sheets of their proposed components, along with a "financial disclosure." By that I mean a statement of the cost of Brand C products, as compared to the costs of Brands A and B. If the contractor gets a significant savings by using Brand C, then the owner should benefit by a partial credit for some of the difference.
    Would you take the contractor's word, how would you vet the numbers?

  5. #15
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    So you left the bid open to, or equal.
    Now your pissing, go look up the fixture is it or equal? If your too lazy request cuts from the bidder, perhaps they found you're new spec. fixtures for other jobs. Why do you need to now what I pay for a fixture if my bid is lowest?

  6. #16
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    This is kind of not fair if there is a significant savings over brands A and B.

    Not fair to the other bidders

    Not fair to the people that need to review brand C when they probably already know brands A and B

    It could be not fair to the owner

    It should make somebody pay closer attention to this company.

    I know a guy that operates this way. He uses the technicalities of contracts to provide equipment that he fabs (and not too well) instead of providing the equipment that the owner obviously wanted. He spends a lot of time in court. Heck of a way to make a living, and his company has been banned from properties and bidding any work on those properties.

    Edit: He was in a different trade, not electrical.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve66 View Post
    That is a good point, although in a way, Larry is right that I would have spent time reviewing any substitutions. And I actually saved time because I didn't have to go looking for equals. They were basically handed to me.

    I see Charlie's point about not making it to easy for the contractor. But that would probably take more of my time, and I'm not sure it would really accomplish anything.

    It is a different area than we normally work in - even out of state.

    I'm on the fence also.
    I'd make them to the "request for substitution" dance, especially if the process is spelled out in the specs. As others have said, don't let them get complacent or you'll have to chase them for compliance on every little detail. Part of the substitution process should be review and approval by the customer. That's at least so you don't get left holding the bag if the substitute product doesn't work out.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by gadfly56 View Post
    I'd make them to the "request for substitution" dance, especially if the process is spelled out in the specs. As others have said, don't let them get complacent or you'll have to chase them for compliance on every little detail. Part of the substitution process should be review and approval by the customer. That's at least so you don't get left holding the bag if the substitute product doesn't work out.
    Don't you think he will be holding the bag no matter what documentation is obtained? If the spec clearly called out brands A and B, then to me that's what should be supplied.

    I just reread the OP and, well, I'm a fence sitter too.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by sameguy View Post
    So you left the bid open to, or equal.
    Quote Originally Posted by sameguy View Post
    Now your pissing, go look up the fixture is it or equal? If your too lazy request cuts from the bidder, perhaps they found you're new spec. fixtures for other jobs. Why do you need to now what I pay for a fixture if my bid is lowest?


    No, it wasn't left open. Contractors that wished to make substitutions were supposed to provide cut sheets along with a request for the substitution to be approved. That was supposed to happen during bidding, but it didn't.

    There is no way to know, but I suspect the difference in price is probably pretty minor. If I asked how much they saved, I'll bet the contractor would say "These were actually more expensive, but I like this supplier because blah blah blah..."

    Quote Originally Posted by gadfly56 View Post
    I'd make them to the "request for substitution" dance, especially if the process is spelled out in the specs. As others have said, don't let them get complacent or you'll have to chase them for compliance on every little detail. Part of the substitution process should be review and approval by the customer. That's at least so you don't get left holding the bag if the substitute product doesn't work out.
    I think that's a pretty good idea, even though bidding is over. At least they would have to admit its a substitution, and maybe even sweat a little. And it would also be a minor pain to the contractor, which Charlie suggested.

    On a side note, this contractor also sent an entire catalog of electrical boxes as a submittal. No indication of what they are going to use, just sent a catalog.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve66 View Post



    On a side note, this contractor also sent an entire catalog of electrical boxes as a submittal. No indication of what they are going to use, just sent a catalog.
    Interesting. I've never considered doing that. It almost makes me chuckle.

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