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Thread: Neutral-Bonded Appliance & Consumer Protection

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by hbiss View Post
    A four wire connection certainly would eliminate the potential shock hazard if the service neutral were to be compromised. With a three wire connection the appliance cabinet would be at the same potential as the floating neutral, with as much as 120v to ground.

    -Hal
    The EGs will be raised to the same potential as the load side of the now open neutral.
    You’ve lost the return path and they are now floating as well.
    Tom
    TBLO

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkidd View Post
    No, The frames are not energized. They are connected to the neutral, and under normal conditions only have a potential voltage above ground equal to the voltage drop on the neutral conductor.
    Excellent distinction Sir, I believe you are correct, and just explained why Non-Contact Voltage Sensors & Tic Tracers don't detect Neutrals!

    Would you agree, touching Neutral-Bonded frames still puts you in the path for parallel current flow @ common mode voltage (CMV) <2.0vac, at the mercy of neutrals that may come loose, to give you the full montey ~ 120vac in this case.
    Roger Ramjet NoFixNoPay

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptonsparky View Post
    ..Are you advocating the use of GFCI protection for three wire range and dryers?
    When a gas line is already in place, a Tamper Resistant GFCI outlet for 120v gas dryer (in laundry or garage) is the down sell that could be offered, but is perhaps controversial.

    2-Pole GFCI's for Neutral-Bonded appliances are also unheard of, but 2017 NFPA-70 210.8(B) "Other Than Dwellings" puts them everywhere.

    In dwellings, re-modeler laborers that cut-off bare wires or leave them loose in J-boxes, among other things, may force 4-wire appliance rough-ins to avoid the remodel wiring mess.

    Electrical construction contracts with building permits must often assume unforeseen complications, then must lose money fixing A/GFCI's that fail after remodels tampered with wiring. If a Panel Flipper's reset button wont hold, and the inspector wants it, then Flipper is force to go inside; to become the attic rat without respirator or headlamp, to become the furniture/appliance mover without dolly or gloves, to become the free laborer without pay, to access all wall boxes in search of wiring altered by renovations.

    Lacking experience with problematic appliances, or circuit tracers, or junctions buried behind walls, and confused how muti-wire circuits break SQ-D AFCI's, the fuse box Flipper publishes his manifesto-conspiracy theory on corrupt regulators that sabotage him with AFCI's.

    Perhaps its easier to pay attention to detail when you are properly paid. When there's no free estimate, and dispatch is covered before arrival, old-work & equipment can be investigated before recommendations are made. More informed decisions are possible, and consumers become more engaged in that process, than with contractors who don't want to investigate, or when its not practical during free estimates.
    Roger Ramjet NoFixNoPay

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptonsparky View Post
    I am curious, how many have repaired compromised neutral connections at or before the Service Entrance?
    Estimating 20% of my Power-Failure dispatches are found outside the building, before reaching meters. About half of those are loose Neutrals (repaired by POCO / Utility lineman). Linemen also pull meters and check meter stabs on customer side, and will repair those while energized, since no disconnect is possible.

    Granted, most service-entrance repairs are with remodels, and existing building services that are over 30yrs old, but I believe open neutrals are responsible for most over-voltage events in N. American wiring, regardless of occurring outside or inside. Remodel / renovation / Laborers / and DIY tampering often
    results in open neutrals inside the building.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptonsparky View Post
    How many have been called for strictly a three wire range or dryer neutral problem?
    The complaint is an entire building is out, or appliances smoked with 240v, before the energized frames are noticed.

    Most Neutral-Bonded electric dryer calls are for new appliance hook-ups to old-work wiring. There are calls for shock hazards with Neutral-Bonded Electric Range/Ovens, after kitchen remodels bare wires are found cut off, or floating loose in J-boxes.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptonsparky View Post
    Are you advocating the use of GFCI protection for three wire range and dryers?


    After thinking about this further, that 2-Pole GFCI may not satisfy casualty investigators, if it overlooks the cause of old-work problems.

    Where electrical equipment may be considered empirically unreliable from age or neglect, the consumer's best interests may have been repair, to comply with current codes, 4-wire rough-in, or service upgrade with Meter Spot.

    If other Code minimums, or industry Standard Operating Procedures (SOP) are ignored, in favor of a GFCI, then negligence or liability may be argued. Especially, if Utility / POCO / Owners are not notified (Duty of Care) of unreliable equipment, or notified to relocate electrical services subject to damage.

    While GFCI outlets & breakers @ 6mA are appropriate for protection against shock hazards, GFCI is not permitted to replace mandates that electrical equipment is properly maintained, much less substitute for neglect, or hazardous defect (remodels).

    For example: the "Replacement Code" for 2-conductor wiring, NFPA-70 406.4(D), allows GFCI to substitute for 120v equipment grounding, only where grounding is not required elsewhere in the code. And, since code specifically demands grounding for pools & other Motor loads inside dwellings (Ceiling & Bath Fans, Range-Hood Vents, Wall/Window HVAC, DW, Disposer, Laundry Appliances), GFCI by itself on Motor loads is not compliant with code minimum.
    Last edited by ramsy; 06-01-19 at 02:01 PM.
    Roger Ramjet NoFixNoPay

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