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Thread: AFCI hates GFCI!

  1. #11
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    So what is tripping, the GFCI, the AFCI, both? You seem to be claiming the GFCI is the problem yet you never said whether it is tripping.

    I expect some spark in any 1200 watt load when it makes or breaks. AFCI's are supposed to be able to reject that as a trip condition.
    I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

  2. #12
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    Every time the OP replies it gets more confusing. The GFCI receptacle is not defective and causing the AFCI to trip. Rather, I believe it prevents the AFCI from tripping in some circumstances.

    I borrowed the glowing pot, and have tried it on several AFCI circuits: they all hold. So much for AFCI protection!
    An AFCI cannot protect against a glowing connection!

    -Hal

  3. #13
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    And an AFCI exposed to a constant or intermittent series arc signature (real or spurious) cannot trip until you put at least 7A of current through the circuit.

    Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldDigger View Post
    And an AFCI exposed to a constant or intermittent series arc signature (real or spurious) cannot trip until you put at least 7A of current through the circuit.

    Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

    I thought GE stated 4 amps.... I may be wrong
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  5. #15
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    10-4

    Quote Originally Posted by hbiss View Post
    It's a counter top cooking appliance like a crock pot only with other functions. It operates with a heating element of generally 1200W. There is a programmable controller for time and temperature. The actual heating element load is either switched with conventional contacts or a solid state device. The load will cycle on and off to maintain temperature.



    I don't think AFCI's separate the wheat from the chaff, just use them enough and you will understand how useless they are.

    -Hal
    Very well spoken Hal.....
    Microwave Radiation Dangers should be openly discussed

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwired View Post
    So what is tripping, the GFCI, the AFCI, both? You seem to be claiming the GFCI is the problem yet you never said whether it is tripping. I expect some spark in any 1200 watt load when it makes or breaks. AFCI's are supposed to be able to reject that as a trip condition.
    To answer your question:
    The GFCI never trips.
    The Siemens AFCI reports an arc fault when the particular older Leviton GFCI outlet is inline.
    The Siemens AFCI does not trip when a new Leviton GFCI outlet is inline.
    When both are in line, the trip happens.
    The arc fault happens with a washer, hair dryer, angle grinder and instant pot (so far). If I go back I'll try a toaster or some other simple resistive load.

    The trip happens only under load: at small draw it holds.

    ---
    The instant pot is defective. The glowing contact is on a pressure overload disconnect that should be normally closed. It's a literal red herring here: the pot was pulled in just to exclude the washer as the source of the problem.

  7. #17
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    The following set of tests addresses glowing contact AFCI claims:
    http://combinationafci.com/resources...ation_afci.pdf
    COMBINATION AFCIs: WHAT THEY WILL AND WILL NOT DO
    Joseph C Engel, PhD
    Member, IEEE
    107 Overlook Circle
    Monroeville PA 15146
    Presented at the 19th Annual IEEE IAS Electrical Safety Workshop, Daytona Beach, Jan/Feb 2012

    I don't have a position on the glowing contact. It just came up due to the random grabbing of a test appliance for the AFCI/GFCI weirdness.

  8. #18
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    The GFCI never trips.
    The Siemens AFCI reports an arc fault when the particular older Leviton GFCI outlet is inline.
    The Siemens AFCI does not trip when a new Leviton GFCI outlet is inline.
    Wouldn't it be safe to assume then that the new GFCI outlet eliminates or attenuates the arc transient traveling through it so that the AFCI doesn't respond to it? And the older GFCI receptacle doesn't do that?

    The only way to prove this is to look at the voltage before and after the receptacle as the condition occurs with a scope. But at this point I (at least) am pretty sure this is what's happening.

    -Hal

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by brycenesbitt View Post
    To answer your question:
    The Siemens AFCI does not trip when a new Leviton GFCI outlet is inline.
    1) Hal is asking if AFCI tripped with plain old 3-prong plug you used, when no GFCI was is inline?

    2) Can you explain why AFCI code compliance was so important to you?
    ...a) Did you expect it required by Municipal or Home Inspection?
    ...b) If not inspected, do you care about property insurance Having Jurisdiction (AHJ) that deny's claims?
    ...c) Are you just a code wonk that does your best to follow code rules?

    Most AFCI's that I install are for existing wiring, new outlets, & old work. My clients are educated why its in there best interest that no legal cause exists for property insurance to void claims, including checking the smokes & batteries.

    Many remodel contractors on this forum openly refuse to install AFCI's, subjecting their clients to denial of claims by insurance investigators.

    Granted owner-builder remodels are rarely inspected, and its not enforced, but I believe refusing required Smokes or AFCI's is negligent disregard for duty of care, and fails to protect owner builders from themselves.
    Roger Ramjet NoFixNoPay

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by brycenesbitt View Post
    Once I narrowed it to the GFCI, I pulled it, and used an old appliance cord to make a little
    ever-so-safe test rig:


    Attachment 23034
    Isn't that what's known as a "Little Jiffy Fuse Blower?"

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