fire place ignitor trips AFCI

Status
Not open for further replies.

sparky_magoo

Senior Member
Location
Reno
I wired up a Master Suite. I ran a 14/2 , off the master plug ckt. to the fire place. This wire is for the fire place ignitor. When th H.O. starts the fire place, the AFCI breaker trips. I have replaced the breaker and metered for faulted nuetrals. All is O.K. The fire place guy tells me that ignitors on some new fire places trip AFCI breakers.

Has any one else encountered this? New code reqiures me to put every bed room outlet on an AFCI breaker. My partner argues that a fire place outlet is not accessible, and therefore is exempt from the new rule.

The inspector called me on this. Any thoughts? What am I doing wrong?
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
It seems the arc fault is doing it's job......honestly I bet a GFCI might trip as well.

I don't have answer for you, this issue has been debated before with me saying if the fireplace serves the bedroom the outlet needs to be AFCI protected.

But others say no it does not need an AFCI.

I don't know who is right.

Next code cycle it won't matter as all 15 and 20 amp outlets will likely require AFCIs.
 

sparky_magoo

Senior Member
Location
Reno
iwire said:
It seems the arc fault is doing it's job......honestly I bet a GFCI might trip as well.

I don't have answer for you, this issue has been debated before with me saying if the fireplace serves the bedroom the outlet needs to be AFCI protected.

But others say no it does not need an AFCI.

I don't know who is right.

Next code cycle it won't matter as all 15 and 20 amp outlets will likely require AFCIs.

How do I resolve this issue? The ignitor trips the AFCI. I can understand why. I can't take the ignitor off the AFCI ckt. per the inspector. I can't change the fire place. Any thoughts? It seems to be my problem. My boss just said "figure it out".

Hopefully this forum will give me some insight. It always has in the past. Thanks guys. I know I have been absent for a while.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
This is why New Jersey has yet to require any AFCI protection. If I was the homeowner I would be rather mad at this dilemma. How can the code require devices that don't work? Honestly I don't see how you can fix the problem unless you can find an AFCI device that is compatible with the ignitor.
 

sparky_magoo

Senior Member
Location
Reno
Afci Bs

Afci Bs

infinity said:
This is why New Jersey has yet to require any AFCI protection. If I was the homeowner I would be rather mad at this dilemma. How can the code require devices that don't work? Honestly I don't see how you can fix the problem unless you can find an AFCI device that is compatible with the ignitor.

Can anyone explain to me why a fire place ignitor reqiures AFCI protection?

The obvious answer is for me to put the fire place ignitor on another ckt. The inspector won't buy off on this. The house is already rocked. The inspecptor sez I must make the ignitor work on the AFCI ckt. My boss sez I must finish by Monday. I have other issues I must finish Monday. This is a custom house with many change orders.

I have all change orders under control except for the fire place ignitor.

What is a poor electrician to do?
 

ceknight

Senior Member
sparky_magoo said:
Any thoughts? What am I doing wrong?

Yes, one thought: since you're forced by law to AFCI protect a device that trips AFCI breakers, you might suggest to the homeowner or GC that they find a unit that doesn't trip AFCI breakers.

There really is no other good, legal alternative if the AHJ won't let you off the hook. Short of moving the house to NY or NJ, anyway.
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Get the factory rep for the AFCI on a threeway phone call with the factory rep for the fireplace. It's their problem. The electrical engineering in these two devices probably don't handshake well with each other, and those engineers need to know that a constituant of their market place, the fount of their livelyhood, can't make their two designs coexist.

I submit that this is manufacturer defect and the basic warranty is in play.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
I agree completely with Chris and Al. Whoever selected the fireplace should have selected one that would work on an AFCI breaker, since they knew (or should have known) it was going into a bedroom.

When they say "We're not the electrical experts!", say "No, I am, but you never asked me."

This is akin to the refrigerator-trips-the-commercial-kitchen-GFCI problem. The refrigerator is the culprit, not the electrician.
 

cpal

Senior Member
Location
MA
I guess the F/P is in the Bedroom???


What mfg is the breaker???
as a last resort you may try another mfg,(out of a small 2-4 ckt panel).

Charlie
 

sparky_magoo

Senior Member
Location
Reno
The fire place installer told me this paticular unit trips AFCI's at other sites. There are no ground faults on the wires. I have tried other breakers.

Thanks for the advice. I will take the position that the fireplace is defective.
 

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
What is causing it to trip? I have fireplaces on AFCI's all the time with no problem.

I agree with the others, it's a defective fireplace. Ignitors might be interchangeable among brands. Tell the fireplace guy to have fun, it's not your problem. :)
 
sparky_magoo said:
The fire place installer told me this paticular unit trips AFCI's at other sites. There are no ground faults on the wires. I have tried other breakers.

Thanks for the advice. I will take the position that the fireplace is defective.


This is ONE of the main reasons I do NOT feel that afci's should be required. Theres just not enuff field testing on them. I really think it should be appealed in the NEC.

It only got passed because of those over paid LOBBYIST!!
 

cpal

Senior Member
Location
MA
LarryFine said:
At who's expense?

If an electrician needs to clear a permit the AHJ is not necessarly concerned with the economics you refer to. The installation needs to be code compliant. If a two circuit panel, offset nipple, AFCI , wire , ect. is going to kill your profit I'd invest in a better calculator.


Charlie
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
cpal said:
If an electrician needs to clear a permit the AHJ is not necessarly concerned with the economics you refer to. The installation needs to be code compliant.

Agreed here, but it's not always the electricians fault, or responsibility, when it doesn't. If we wire or install a defective device, must we replace it at our cost?

If a two circuit panel, offset nipple, AFCI , wire , ect. is going to kill your profit I'd invest in a better calculator.

No comment.
 

tom baker

First Chief Moderator
Staff member
I suspect the AFCI is working OK and is tripping on a ground fault, its listed as a GFPE breaker, at 50 mA to ground. Is the fireplace ignitor UL listed?
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
tom baker said:
I suspect the AFCI is working OK and is tripping on a ground fault, its listed as a GFPE breaker, at 50 mA to ground. Is the fireplace ignitor UL listed?

I believe it's more likely to be the ignitor, arcing to ground rather than the circuit's neutral by design, but that could possibly also trigger GFCI protection.

Either way, it's probably a fireplace/protective device incompatibility issue.
 

ron

Senior Member
In order for the igniter to do its job, doesn't it arc? I would think that the AFCI would see the igniter as a arc fault and open as it should.

I wish I had a solution. Pilot lights anyone?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top