Sump pump connection

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Ok...here's one for the books... In a normal sump-pump setup the cord would be run up to a receptacle on the wall adjacent to the sump.

In this situation the sump pit is in the middle of a living room and the pump will need to be plugged in below floor level. I'm thinking because the pump is U.L. Listed the plug can't be cut off so it would still be plugged in to a GFI which would be locatd on the wall of the pit as high as possible.

A self-proclaimed expert was speculating that this should be governed by codes concerning "underwater" connections (citing 680.52). I say that it isn't underwater if the pump is operating, any more than a basement is underwater if a pump is operating....

...any experts (self-proclaimed or not) care to weigh in?
 

triphase

Senior Member
I am not self proclaimed. But what is the sump pump doing in the living room and plugged in below floor level?
 
This is a back-up sump to the exterior French drain system in case of excessive ground water. Middle of the living room is where it ended up...I'm just trying to make it work. We've got Sched. 80 PVC to living room wall and up to GFI receptacle...
 
...that was my reading too. Where did he come up with that? And I don't intend that people should use it as a theraputic pool either. I'm just trying to find out what code section should be consulted.
 

steve66

Senior Member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
Engineer
I'm not sure there is any code, but I would be a little concerned about a receptacle in a sump pit. If the pump quits, or simply can't keep up, the sump pit will fill with water very quick. However, a receptacle mounted at 12" AFF would probably take a very long time to get submerged.

I guess I'm saying I don't really think a receptacle in the pit is the same as a receptacle on the basement wall.

Steve
 

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
I think you can cut the plug off the cord without getting anyone upset. It is always up to the AHJ to judge the installation.
However, you can not change out the cord for a different wiring method, that would be going against the manufacturers intent.
 

peteo

Senior Member
Location
Los Angeles
Not expert opinion. Did have a similar one recently. Visited my AHJ office, where they agreed that a receptacle below grade is the wrong answer. In a new one for me, was told to run large (1.5-2) sched 80 PVC up to near the receptacle. The plug must be fed up to the wall receptacle. "The PVC is there for protecting the cord, not as a raceway."

This being commercial, no playing with UL, in other words, no cord cutting or replacement allowed. Found that only a couple companies make pumps with longer cords and that they're special order (not really my problem.) Tried to imagine a way to fit the cord end through a waterproof strain relief into a waterproof box... :idea: end of thought.

The use of a GFCI for outdoor commercial (unlike yours) is specifically a gray area. This is asking for a trip, which would of course happen after hours in the worst weather. So what I'm planning on, is to GF it only if the pump instructions say so.
 

colosparker

Senior Member
I'm no expert, but I would suggest listening to your "self proclaimed expert", who seems to be using good old common sense.
 

tshea

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
peteo said:
Not expert opinion. Did have a similar one recently. Visited my AHJ office, where they agreed that a receptacle below grade is the wrong answer. In a new one for me, was told to run large (1.5-2) sched 80 PVC up to near the receptacle. The plug must be fed up to the wall receptacle. "The PVC is there for protecting the cord, not as a raceway."

I would approach the AHJ with this solution. I have found that if you present a possible solution, the AHJ is more apt to be reasonable and use common sense than if the AHJ had to create the solution.

I also do not think anything is wrong with this method.
 

tom baker

First Chief Moderator
Staff member
Some sump pumps have a small air line in the cord. It vents the diaphram switch to atmosphere. If you cut the plug off the pump will not work.
The solution given seems most reasonable. I have done this will other septic pumps and then the cord connection is not in a classified location.
You may experience some odors from the 2" conduit.
 

dlhoule

Senior Member
Location
Michigan
I am confused again (still)? Does sump pit sit in middle of Liv room floor or is it in crawl space with floor joists over it? If you have floor joists, can't you mount outlet on one?
 

pierre

Senior Member
What is the problem with a receptacle in the sump pit? Other than possible installation instructions, I do not see where this is prohibited. For those who may not have basements, we see them flood up to the first floor quite often after spring thaw and storms- yes there are electrical devices installed there.
If the sump stops working for whatever reason, the receptacle in the pit will probably be the least of the concerns that will develop.

I do not see where the NEC permits cords to be installed in raceways. The reason is the cords are supposed to be visible for their entire length.

I will admit this seems to be a very unusual installation... I would love to see a picture of this.
 

Zorch

Member
Cords are not supposed to be installed in any conduit. A GFCI is not listed as suitable for wet locations by itself. - that's why we use in-use covers. Certainly a crock would be considered a wet location.

I would fail such an installation.
 

tshea

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
Zorch said:
Cords are not supposed to be installed in any conduit. A GFCI is not listed as suitable for wet locations by itself. - that's why we use in-use covers. Certainly a crock would be considered a wet location.

I would fail such an installation.

Since you failed this install, what is your recommendation? What is the basis for failure? (cite code)


I would say the PVC sleeve is a method to protect the cord from physical damage. I'm sure you have seen the "ramps" in offices that cover the cord. Basically it is protecting the cord from physical damage.
 

pierre

Senior Member
Where does the NEC say that cords for general use can be installed in a raceway for physical protection? Other than 400.14 which is very restrictive to industrial establishments.

Take a peek at 400.8(6)
 

Zorch

Member
Tshea.

No, I've never failed such an installation because I've never seen such an installation. It's just such an odd set-up. Nowhere in the NEC does it specifically forbid installing a GFCI in the wall of a sink either. I honestly don't mean to sound sarcastic.

We all know that sump pumps will eventually fail (usually after 10:00 p.m. and all stores are closed - oh yeah ... and during a torrential downpour.). I would therefore, fail this installation on the grounds that it is in a wet location as partially described in Article 100 "... in locations subject to saturation with water or other liquids."

I'd also push the issue by citing 110.11 and possibly 110.12, although the latter would be tough to explain. It's just such a lousy installation.
 

pierre

Senior Member
110.12 Where does this installation fail that section?

110.11- if you fail it for this, than all outdoor GFCI receptacles should fail your inspections as well. Do you permit outdoor GFCI protectec receptacles?


There are plenty of lousy installation situations in this industry, we just have to get over it and move on to the next job.
 
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