680.26???? / Hot Tub in a Fountain

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jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
It is my understanding that a water fall is going to be installed in the hole above the #8 in front of this tub that will have a separate pump and water system. The water fall will totally encompass the hot tub.

The debate is the proper method of installing the bonding grid outlined in 680.26.
Should the block wall with rock veneering have a grid installed as outlined in 680.26(B)(1)(b)?
Would a single #8 installed around the top of the veneered wall satisfy the requirements of 680.26(B)(2)(b)?
How will the pool of water at the bottom of this tub affect the working space in front of the control panel?

Please be kind

hottub_001.jpg


hottub_007.jpg


hottub_003.jpg
 

M. D.

Senior Member
A hot tub in a fountain ,..Good grief,... what will they think of next!

Well as far as bonding I would bond and bond some more ,.. I don't think the NEC adresses this type of installation . I would bond the area that will catch the water extendind 3' out from the wadeing pool edge , I would also liked to have bonded that rock wall/skirt ,.. perhaps a mesh between the block ang the stone ?? that gutter might even make my list ,.. Good luck Charlie Brown
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Mike I took the liberty of adding to your thread title in the hopes of getting more responses to your unusual situation.
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
Thank You Bob

This is a situation that an inspector friend of mine found Friday and asked me about the proper bonding procedures.

I must say that I am not completely sure just how one would address this tub so I posted it here in hopes of getting some input before Monday morning.

In my opinion there are several issues with this installation.

Of course there is the equipotential bonding grid and the question of weather or not this grid should be installed in the veneered wall as the block does not have any rebar but also does this grid need to reach to the outside of the water fall.

Then there is the issue of access to the control panel which will have a pool of water directly in front of it. Will a piece of plywood laid down be good enough or should some sort of permanent means be provided for access to the control panel?

The down spout for the gutters is with in arms reach of any one in the tub and also there is a metal lintel for the opening just behind the tub which I think should be bonded to the grid.

I was sure that I would get more response than it seems to be generating.

Feel free anyone as your input is very important to me.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
I guess the first thing is to agree that this is a non conductive shell. I believe it is based on the fact that it is fiberglass even though the masonry wall is conductive. I think that eliminates 680.26(B)(1) a and b. Agreed?
My reasoning is this

NEC 280.26(B)(1) said:
Vinyl liners and fiberglass composite shells shall be considered to be nonconductive materials.

I see vinyl lined pools in contact with the earth so I see this as no different.

Now we have 680.26(B)(2) involved. I also believe that 680.26.B(2)(b) is applicable.

If that is so the bonding does not need be under the masonry wall unless that #8 conductor is more than 24" from the inside wall of the pool. Also, the depth of the #8 is questionable from the photo. It must be between 4 and 6" below subgrade-- whatever subgrade is.:D
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
It is 680.26(B)(2) that is generating much confusion in this installation. Being that there is no structural reinforcing steel in the block or rock then an alternate means is now required as outlined in 680.26(B)(2)(b) and I think we would all agree with this.

680.26(B)(2)(b)
(4) The required conductor shall be 450 to 600 mm (18 to 24 in.) from the inside walls of the pool.
(5) The required conductor shall be secured within or under the perimeter surface 100 mm to 150 mm (4 in. to 6 in.) below the subgrade.

Now these two subsections come into play with this installation. If I am reading these correctly then this alternate means must be installed no less than 18 inches and no more than 24 inches from the water in the tub. It must be no less than 4 inches and no more than 6 inches below grade.

Looking at:
(2) Perimeter Surfaces. The perimeter surface shall extend for 1 m (3 ft) horizontally beyond the inside walls of the pool and shall include unpaved surfaces as well as poured concrete and other types of paving.

There are a couple of places where the minimum of 18 inches can not be achieved and to stretch it out to 24 inches will put the bonding grid under the waterfall unless it is allowed to be installed in the vertical wall. If installed in the vertical wall it still would not meet the horizontal requirements.
If it is under the waterfall then it will exceed the 6 inches depth outlined in (b)(5). If installed on the outside of the waterfall then it will be more than 24 inches from the water in the tub.

The contractor installed a #8 around the top of the wall of the tub but this does not go out for 18 inches in some places and then added the #8 that is to be under the water of the waterfall and more than 6 inches below finish grade.

Another concern is the access to the control panel which will be in the middle of a big pool of water for the waterfall. This pool of water can be seen in the first picture. It is that big hole in front of the control panel.

 

RUWired

Senior Member
Location
Pa.
Mike, can you look at it from the man made bodies of water angle, such as in article 682.33.the hot tub can be considered in the water if surrounded.Just a thought.

Rick

682.33 Equipotential Planes and Bonding of Equipotential Planes.
An equipotential plane shall be installed where required in this section to mitigate step and touch voltages at electrical equipment.

(A) Areas Requiring Equipotential Planes.
Equipotential planes shall be installed adjacent to all outdoor service equipment or disconnecting means that control equipment in or on water, that have a metallic enclosure and controls accessible to personnel, and that are likely to become energized. The equipotential plane shall encompass the area around the equipment and shall extend from the area directly below the equipment out not less than 900 mm (36 in.) in all directions from which a person would be able to stand and come in contact with the equipment.
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
Mike, can you look at it from the man made bodies of water angle, such as in article 682.33.

This is what I am hoping to get responses about

The electrical contractor maintains that the bonding grid can be a #8 as he has it installed now and that the waterfall is a fountain.

The electrical inspector?s worries are that there are two different bodies of water controlled by two different circuits in close proximity to each other.

 

M. D.

Senior Member
I think you also could see it as a wading pool , AS an EC I would want to,.. some how bond that stone wall and both the water in the tub , which I see will be, and the water in the wading pool. Also where it can,. the grid should extend 3' beyond the little pool
 
A hot tub in a fountain ,..Good grief,... what will they think of next!

that gutter might even make my list ,.. Good luck Charlie Brown


MD
My first thoughts were WOW!!!
I like your response better.



Sometimes the answers are not cut in stone. This one will take some time to think about.


P.S.
I also agree about the leader coming down the wall behind the tub as being close enough for bonding to.


Is there any labels on the print, such as Hot Tub and wading pool or hot tub and fountian?
 

RUWired

Senior Member
Location
Pa.
I think that there are two points of concern. One is where the occupants enter the hot tub and two, where the service man enters the control panel.
It looks like the area to the upper left of the hot tub
is the entry point and is where the equipotential plane should be, unless you really think that someone will walk into the surround and then into the tub or viseversa.
The area around the opening to the control panel should have a equipotential plane and also 3' from the waters edge leading to the control panel opening.That would be under the finish material not install yet on the walkway.
This should resolve the issues of walking up to the control panel and into the tub.
Rick
 

M. D.

Senior Member
MD
My first thoughts were WOW!!!
I like your response better.



Sometimes the answers are not cut in stone. This one will take some time to think about.


P.S.
I also agree about the leader coming down the wall behind the tub as being close enough for bonding to.

Pierre, The bonding of the leader(gutter) is something that I would do as an E.C. .
I'm one of those that does not believe that all fixed metal parts within 5' require bonding, as that would mean bonding all metal parts , nails screws, door bell buttons ,.letter slots, plant hangers ,. window frames etc,... while at the same time I get to ignore small fixed metal parts even when they are in the pool/tub??
No ,.I think those "all fixed metal parts" are limited to Metal wiring methods and equipment as defined by the NEC,. otherwise I'd have to bond those isolated parts found in (5).

Not trying to hijack ,..just wanted to be clear ,.. choice vs. requirement .

This is an interesting install to say the least..
 
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