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Thread: Frequently Asked 2005 NEC Questions

  1. #31
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    • Do you install three-ways and fourways so the load is off when the switches are all down?
    It is entirely a preference decision, just like whether grounds should be up or down.

    Here's some related threads, full of opinions:

    http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=66873
    Last edited by Dennis Alwon; 09-05-11 at 08:12 AM.

  2. #32
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    • Should I join or avoid a Union shop?
    This topic is prohibited by policy. This topic brings out very passionate (and many times hurtful) responses from both Pro- and Non- Union individuals. It is a friendship-killing topic that will be stopped in it's tracks as soon as it is reported to and/or seen by a moderator.

    If you are curious about why you should join or avoid a union, feel free to Private Message individuals about the topic. Union members are not prohibited from mentioning their affiliation in their signatures, and many do. They can be located and contacted with minimal difficulty.

    If you would like to be added to this list as an advocate for either merit or union employment, feel free to PM me. Being added to the list on this post means that you would be willing to recieve PM's from members wishing to discuss this issue privately.*

    *All members should bear in mind that the same rules of conduct apply to private messages as well as public posts, but are not visible to moderators. Anyone who would use this list as a means to harass or otherwise offend those members who've chosen to be a part of this list, will be subject to immediate suspension of their membership from this forum.

    Merit:

    Union:
    Last edited by George Stolz; 07-30-07 at 09:17 PM.

  3. #33
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    UL White Book




    The UL White Book is a profoundly helpful publication by the Underwriters Laboratories that works hand-in-hand with the NEC (in most cases). Many times, there is a practice or use for a listed item that is not mentioned in the NEC, and can be cleared up by looking at how the item was listed.

    The UL White Book can be searched online by clicking here for the many-optioned search page or here for the shorter search page.
    The entire 2006 UL White Book can be downloaded immediately in .pdf format by clicking on this link: Large download of White Book.

    One easy way to search for the information you're looking for on the many-optioned search page is to search for not only the device type, but also a manufacturer in the same search.

    For example, I'm mostly familiar with Cooper receptacles. If I want to know the listing requirements for receptacles in general, it's still helpful to add the name of a manufacturer I am familiar with, to get more closely related hits.

    Bear in mind, the UL is not the only NRTL around, but they are the most easily recognized.

    Related Links:
    Cool Feature of the UL White Book - Nov 2006. Started by Pierre, with 7 replies
    Last edited by Dennis Alwon; 09-05-11 at 08:12 AM.

  4. #34
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    Etiquette

    Much of what is posted here is taken from this source. I have taken the liberty of bolding my personal favorites.

    Certain rules of unspoken etiquette are recommended to be followed when using Internet forums. They include:
    • One should read all the rules and guidelines established by the community; some communities may have different regulations on a particular subject.
    • One should always be courteous.
    • Before creating a new topic thread, one is advised to search to see if a similar topic already exists.
    • Contributors should follow standard grammar and spelling rules and avoid slang.
    • If the forum is categorized, one should strive to post in the correct section.
    • When making a technical inquiry, one should include as much technical information as possible, especially in the subject line.
    • Contributors are asked to stay on-topic.
    • Contributors should avoid double posting and Crossposting.
    • To avoid appearing self-absorbed, one should respond to topics started by others more often than starting topics of their own.
    • Contributors should avoid the use of all CAPITAL LETTERS in posts. All CAPS is considered "shouting" and causes readability issues.
    • One is advised not to resurrect a very old topic if nothing significant will be added. This practice is known as revival or Necroing.
    • One should try to refrain from lashing back at a poorly behaving member or participating in a flame war; instead, notify the messageboard's staff of the event.
    • When quoting a previous post, one should only include the relevant portion of that post. Contributors are requested to keep in mind that their audience can likely still see the message they are quoting on the same screen and can read it again if need be. Click here to see detailed instructions on how to do this effectively.
    • Try not to edit a post after other members have already replied to your original. If you forgot to mention an important detail in your original post, simply post another reply in the thread with the follow-up information. It can be very confusing for other members who are unaware of the edit.
    • Try to avoid cursing. This site consists of probably 50% construction workers, who are reknowned for their ability to curse. Cursing does not add to a post, and the non-construction workers probably find it offensive. One aspect of this site that makes it special is that people from all walks contribute here, and cursing can turn people off from the site, whose contributions we value greatly. We don't need professionals getting turned off and leaving due to rampant cussing. A guideline I use is when I would normally say "p***ed", I simply switch it to "ticked", it works just as well.
    • Avoid bathroom humor and sexual innuendo. It will be deleted. People come here for help with technical issues, to advance their knowledge of products and theory, and to talk shop. This site is restricted to electrical professionals only, which makes this site somewhat unique, so try to act professional. Humor definutely adds to the mix here, it's half the reason to be here: but it does not need to be dirty to be funny.
    • Try to split your posts into paragraphs. They're easier to read. Admittedly, some of us type a sentence a paragraph, which is a touch excessive - but it beats giving headaches to the reader by packing a lot of information into a solid block of text. It also encourages people quoting your post to take the single small paragraph they are really focused on.
    Last edited by George Stolz; 02-17-07 at 08:51 AM.

  5. #35
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    Etiquette II / Quoting Primer

    Sometimes, when posting a response to a particular post, you really are replying to the post in it's entirety. In that case, it's more appropriate to simply set your reply up as you would type a letter, and simply say the person's name at the beginning of the reply:

    Fred, I disagree with your post. Grass is definutely green.
    instead of

    Quote Originally Posted by fred
    Grass can be blue, orange or any other color. Look at these pictures of grass I have doctored with photoshop:
    (picture)
    (picture)
    (picture)
    Obviously, some doctoring was necessary in order to convey the point I am trying to get across, which is that I'm unwilling to admit that I'm wrong and crow is poisonous to me. In general, George is just typing to make this fake post seem longer and more complicated, which is difficult considering the generic topic he has chosen. In fact, he probably would have been better served to have selected a couple of real examples of each method of posting, and saved himself some trouble. But, after all, why stop while you're having fun, right? And besides, it would look like I was singling somebody out for doing this, right? Grass can definutely be purple.

    Deal with it.
    I disagree, grass is definutely green.
    This is especially helpful when the quoted post has several large pictures in it. There is very little point in reposting the pictures in the quote. If a particular picture is important to your reply, then simply say "the third picture" for example, it's much kinder to the reader.

    Are you not sure how to single out a single sentence of a post to quote? Here's a primer. Let's look at the quote above, the long one. I want to expose Fred for the photo-doctoring yutz he is.

    I hit the "quote" button in Fred's post, and see the following in the message window:


    It's really the first sentence that proves Fred is a photoshopping SOB. So, click and drag, highlighting everything from the end of the post backward:



    Now, you hit delete. But, computers being computers, something broke:




    The [/quote] tag on the end accidentally got half-deleted, because Windows machines like being overly helpful and highlighting words instead of letters the way they should. Your computer is deciding for you that the [/ at the end of what you deleted is part of the last word you actually wanted deleted. So, you have to type it back into the end of the quoted post for it to look right.

    Then just type in your reply.



    The finished post looks like this:


    The extra effort makes your posts easier to read. Sometimes, it's hard to understand where 'what's quoted' ends, and where the reply begins. Feel free to PM me if this doesn't help and you'd like more help figuring this out, many folks already have and are happier with their experience here.

    If you want to practice, feel free to put practice posts up on this thread.

    If you want to learn how to do a quote within a quote, or multiple quotes from different people in the same reply, click here.
    Last edited by George Stolz; 06-24-07 at 08:56 AM.

  6. #36
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    Grounding Vs. Bonding
    The Big Picture

    • What is “grounding”? What is “bonding”? What’s the difference?

    Grounding and bonding is probably the most discussed issue here, aside from 210.52’s design requirements.

    The terms are defined in Article 100 and 250.2 of the NEC. Section 250.4 provides the performance requirements of Article 250. Grounding is a connection to earth, and bonding is the connection of items to each other.

    Bonding is crucial inside a structure, because without it, if something goes wrong and an ungrounded conductor comes in contact with a piece of metal that someone can touch, that someone will receive a shock and potentially be electrocuted due to the uncleared fault. A quick and dirty definition for bonding is connecting electrical devices together in the attempt to trip a breaker, if an ungrounded conductor touches surface metal associated with the system.

    What does the earth have to do with this? Nothing.

    Then why is it called an “Equipment Grounding Conductor (EGC)” in the NEC if it’s primary purpose is to “bond” things together? Simple answer: tradition. It’s always been called that, and the terms in the NEC have served to confuse people for a long time. Proposals have been made to change the term, and progress has been made, but the EGC continues to hold it’s misnomer.

    Electricity does not seek the path of least resistance to the earth. It seeks all available paths back to it’s source, in proportion to their resistance. The reason that a person gets shocked when touching an ungrounded conductor and the earth is because the neutral of the system is repeatedly connected to earth in a grounded electrical system. The earth becomes part of a return path to the transformer – it’s part of one route back to the source; the earth is not the destination for the electricity.

    Driving a ground rod to ‘ground’ any electrical equipment does not provide the low-resistance path required to trip breakers. Driving a ground rod, or using a Ufer, or a metal water pipe is not a substitute for an EGC. A ground rod with 25 ohms to earth will allow almost five amps to escape the system into the earth when directly energized from a 120V source. Five amps will never trip a 15A or 20A breaker, and in the meantime everything bonded to this ground rod will be energized to 120V.


    Bob Ludecke has created a powerpoint presentation under the 2002 cycle, and has granted permission for a link to be posted for download. Chris Knight has graciously provided a site for downloading the presentation:
    http://www.tirebiter.net/downloads/ludecke.html

    Thanks to both Chris and Bob for their help on this very important topic!



    If any of the items discussed here does not make sense to you, or if you disagree, please start a thread publicly or send a private message to me to discuss it privately, if you desire. It is critical that this issue be understood to ensure the safety of everyone involved.
    Last edited by George Stolz; 09-06-09 at 11:30 PM.

  7. #37
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    • Is the neutral a current carrying conductor? How do I apply 310.15(B)(4)?
    First the silly answer: the neutral always carries current.

    310.15(B)(4) tells us that we don't need to account for neutral conductors that only carry 'the unbalanced current from other conductors of the same circuit'. These conductors still carry some current, but we are permitted to ignore them in our accounting when applying the adjustment factors of table 310.15(B)(2)(a).

    This is found in two common situations.

    1) A single phase feeder or multi-wire branch circuit consisting of two 'hots' (ungrounded conductors) and a single 'neutral' (grounded conductor). In this case, the neutral carries only the unbalanced current of the two hot conductors, we would count a total of two current carrying conductors.

    2) A three phase feeder or multi-wire branch circuit consisting of three 'hots' (ungrounded conductors) and a single 'neutral' (grounded conductor) where the major portion of the load is linear. In this case, the neutral carries only the unbalanced current of the three hot conductors, we would count a total of three current carrying conductors.

    The rest of the time we have to count the neutral.

    To understand this, remember that 310.15(B)(4) is all about accounting, not about reality. This is about figuring out the correct number from 310.15(B)(2)(a) to apply, not about the minute details of how many conductors actually have a bit of current flowing on them.

    The main requirement is that the conductor carry only the unbalanced current of the other conductors in the same circuit. This tells us that there have to be other conductors, and that these other conductors have to be able to carry the _balanced_ current of the circuit. If the other conductors can possibly carry all of the balanced current, then only the unbalanced current is left for the neutral. This is the case when 310.15(B)(4) kicks in. The neutral may carry some current, but it doesn't count for 310.15(B)(2)(a).

    But if the 'hot' conductors are not balanced, then some of the balanced current must flow on the neutral. This this case with any single 'line-neutral' circuit, and is also the case when you have two phases of a three phase wye system sharing a neutral. The neutral carries both unbalanced and balanced current, and must be counted for 310.15(B)(2)(a).

    Harmonics confuse this a bit: the neutral has to carry the _balanced_ triplen harmonic current of the load. We are permitted some leeway, but when the major portion of the load is non-linear, the neutral is no longer considered to carry _only_ unbalanced current from the other conductors, and thus must be counted.

    -Jon

    Related Threads:
    Origination thread of this FAQ - Mar 2008. Started by Winnie, with 9 replies as of 3/14/07.
    Good Examples of when the neutral is a current carrying conductor
    Edit to remove opening conversational remark, edit format
    Edit to add related thread
    Last edited by Dennis Alwon; 09-05-11 at 08:59 PM.

  8. #38
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    Noteworthy Links




    EC&M: Tables, Examples, and Appendices - Chapter 9, Appendix B - Article written for EC&M by Fredric P. Hartwell (12/1995). (Link Ctsy of Celtic)



    EC&M: The Middle Of The Wire Isn't It's End - Article written for EC&M by Fredric P. Hartwell (03/1998). Details the use of the 60 and 75 degree columns when determining ampacity. (Link Ctsy of Celtic)
    Handicap Accessibility requirements for receptacles and switches - Short thread about heights and ADA.
    Charlie's Rule of Technical Reading - The NEC comes alive when read using Charlie's Rule.
    NEMA Guide to Water-Damaged Equipment, and an NEC Digest article on water-damaged equipment by Jim Pauley of Square D.
    The dangers of open neutrals - Article by Mike Holt.
    480Sparky's open neutral powerpoint presentation.
    Online Pulling Calculator at electrician2.com. Link csty of Don Ganiere.
    Bussman Short Circuit Calc PDF
    High Voltage Shock Presentation - Link csty of Larry Fine.
    Receptacle Heights for ADA (Disability Requirements)
    Business 101 - tx2step makes a record-breaking post about business.
    1901 NEC - Download location found by Bryan Holland.
    Fluorescent Socket PDF - Describes the differences in sockets for different ballasts. Link Ctsy of Bob Badger.
    Why does 240.4(D) exist? - Good thread by KingPB, link to answer.
    480Sparky's Linkfest - 480Sparky started a thread for posting more links to good information.
    Ronald Coleman's page - Internet Index of interest for electricians.
    ElectricianSmarts.com - link ctsy of emahler.
    How to attach an Excel spreadsheet to a post
    Drilling Glulams
    Last edited by Dennis Alwon; 09-02-11 at 02:42 PM.

  9. #39
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    • Am I required to bond the hot and cold supply pipes to the motor of a jetted tub?
    *Note: There is some disagreement as to the interpretation of NEC-2005 680.74.

    IMO, No. Check out 680.74:

    680.74 Bonding. All metal piping systems and all grounded metal parts in contact with the circulating water shall be bonded together using a copper bonding jumper, insulated, covered, or bare, not smaller than 8 AWG solid.
    Only the piping systems in contact with the circulating water are required to be bonded. Generally, these are plastic (supplied with the tub) so no bonding is required by the NEC.

    This was an intentional lowering of the requirements in the 2005 cycle.

    Panel Statement: The need for bonding in a bathroom differs from the need for bonding in a pool area. Electrical equipment of a hydromassage bathtub is not accessible to users of the tub. Only parts that can cause a voltage gradient in the bathtub need to be bonded. Section 680.74 has been concisely reworded to require the bonding of only the parts that present a risk of creating voltage gradients in the hydromassage bathtub. The panel's action on 17-183 supersedes the panel's action on ROP 17-153.
    Related Threads:
    Another jacuzzi tub bonding question?? - May 2007. Started by Jango, still in progress.
    Whirlpool Tub Bond Lug - May 2007. Started by gaelectric, 50 replies, still in progress.
    Hydromassage Tub Code References Please - Apr 2007. Started by Vinniem, 22 replies.
    Poll for Inspectors - Mar 2007. Started by JlJohnson, 45 replies.
    Hydro Tub Bonding - Sep 2007. Started by Dirkhats, 17 replies to date.
    Last edited by George Stolz; 09-25-07 at 11:44 PM.

  10. #40
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    Quote within a Quote, Multiple Quotes

    Quoting Guide II
    Multiple Quotes


    If you would like to quote several posts in one reply, here's how to do it:

    Stan says that GFCI's are not required in kitchens in post #2.

    Fred says that receptacles in a kitchen are required to be no more than two feet apart in post #4.

    1. Click on the Name:  multiquote_40b.png
Views: 3474
Size:  2.7 KB button in either post - let's say I hit the quote button in Stan's post. The reply screen loads, with Stan's quote in quote bars, as described in the quoting guide. Erase the parts you don't wish to reply to, to save space and to clarify what you're responding to.

    2. Type your reply to Stan's comment. Hit the enter key a couple times, when you're finished, to make a little space for the next quote.

    3. Type in the first quote bracket, [quote=Fred] , and scroll down the reply screen until you see Fred's comment. (If you leave out the =Fred part of the quote bracket, the quote will still work - but everyone will think Stan said what's in the quote, since he was the last one you quoted. The software automatically put a =Stan into the first quote when you hit the button in Stan's post.)

    If a thread is more than 10 replies long, you will have to click the link at the bottom of the displayed posts to open the thread back up in a new window, to find Fred's earlier comment.

    4. Copy Fred's comment, and paste it into the reply screen.

    5. Type the end quote bracket, [/quote] .

    6. Hit the return key a couple times, and reply to Fred.

    7. Hit the preview post button, to make sure it went off as you intended.

    So this:
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    [quote=Stan]GFCI's are not required in kitchens.[/quote]

    Stan, you need to read 210.8 - GFCI's are required on countertops.

    [quote=Fred]Receptacles in a kitchen are required to be no more than two feet apart.[/quote]

    They can be four feet apart.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Looks like this:

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by Stan
    GFCI's are not required in kitchens.
    Stan, you need to read 210.8 - GFCI's are required on countertops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred
    Receptacles in a kitchen are required to be no more than two feet apart.
    They can be four feet apart.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Quote within a quote


    Scenario: Stan said no GFCI's in a kitchen, and Fred replied with a correction with no code reference, and you want to be fancy and show them both and add the code reference. Here's how:


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------



    Quote Originally Posted by Fred
    Quote Originally Posted by Stan
    No GFCI's required in a kitchen.
    Not true, but I don't have my code book handy.



    [/quote] <----------(Ignore this: when the software gets a lot of bracketing going on, it starts adding gunk, it's a glitch.)





    Take a look at 210.8.



    ----------------------------------------------------------------------


    [quote=Fred][quote=Stan]No GFCI's required in a kitchen.[/quote]
    [left]Not true, but I don't have my code book handy.[/quote][/quote][/left]


    Take a look at 210.8.
    Last edited by Dennis Alwon; 09-01-11 at 08:00 PM.

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