“Next size up” rule and GFCI’s, cord-and-plug equipment

[brantmacga]

The equipment in question here is a shake machine at a fast food restaurant. For as long as I’ve been doing them, the plans have always specified a 50/3 circuit.

I’m currently doing a lot of remodels in Florida, and just got flagged on this as apparently the nameplate specifies a 45/3 MOCP. This was a relocation of an existing machine using the existing 50/3 circuit. This job was permitted on the 2014 NEC, but I’ve got several more in this town all permitted after 1/1/2021, so the 2017 NEC will apply.

As far as I can see, no one makes a 45/3 GFCI. Most of these stores have either Square D or Westinghouse gear. Eaton doesn’t even make a 3-pole GFCI breaker in any size, and my original plan was to install SqD sub panel with a 50/3 GFCI, which is what every new store uses. Inspector is telling me to figure it out.

I suppose my only option is to install a disconnect with a 45/3 breaker fed by a 50/3 GFCI? Any other thoughts? The “next size up” rule doesn’t apply to cord and plug equipment. I’ve been building these stores for over 10 years and this is the first time I’ve ran into this issue. I’m going to send this up the chain to corporate engineering also and get their thoughts.


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[texie]

Sorry, but the inspector is correct. Since this is equipment that requires the Max OCPD to be listed on the label it is just that-max. The next size up rule would not be allowed no matter the connection method. This is one of those aggravating code requirements where the equipment is not available. Your method might be easiest. Or maybe Bender has a device you could feed with a 45/3 breaker.

 

[tortuga]

The equipment in question here is a shake machine at a fast food restaurant. For as long as I’ve been doing them, the plans have always specified a 50/3 circuit.

I’m currently doing a lot of remodels in Florida, and just got flagged on this as apparently the nameplate specifies a 45/3 MOCP. This was a relocation of an existing machine using the existing 50/3 circuit. This job was permitted on the 2014 NEC, but I’ve got several more in this town all permitted after 1/1/2021, so the 2017 NEC will apply.

As far as I can see, no one makes a 45/3 GFCI. Most of these stores have either Square D or Westinghouse gear. Eaton doesn’t even make a 3-pole GFCI breaker in any size, and my original plan was to install SqD sub panel with a 50/3 GFCI, which is what every new store uses. Inspector is telling me to figure it out.

I suppose my only option is to install a disconnect with a 45/3 breaker fed by a 50/3 GFCI? Any other thoughts? The “next size up” rule doesn’t apply to cord and plug equipment. I’ve been building these stores for over 10 years and this is the first time I’ve ran into this issue. I’m going to send this up the chain to corporate engineering also and get their thoughts.


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I feel your pain, yes I have run into this also.
Yes install a disconnect with a 45/3 breaker fed by a 50/3 GFCI or the reverse is probably fine.

 

[wwhitney]

Is the equipment labeled with an MCA, could you supply it with a 40/3 GFCI, or does it require over 40A?

Cheers, Wayne

 

[infinity]

Is the equipment labeled with an MCA, could you supply it with a 40/3 GFCI, or does it require over 40A?

Cheers, Wayne

My thought as well unless the minimum and the maximum is the same.

 

[augie47]

Happens here on grills also. Most use a remote GFCI device and either a shunt-trip breaker or a contactor.
(or in some cases hardwire the equipment...no receptacle)

 

[kwired]

Happens here on grills also. Most use a remote GFCI device and either a shunt-trip breaker or a contactor.
(or in some cases hardwire the equipment...no receptacle)

Which should eliminate the GFCI requirement most cases.

 

[electrofelon]

The NEC drinks your milkshake!

 

[brantmacga]

Happens here on grills also. Most use a remote GFCI device and either a shunt-trip breaker or a contactor.
(or in some cases hardwire the equipment...no receptacle)

Since the GFI code went into effect, we now install all of the fryer and grill GFCI’s into a single panel board fed with a shunt trip breaker.


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[brantmacga]

I’ve been doing some checking around today. There are three different manufactures of this equipment, which I did know, but they have varying electrical specs although all of them ship with a 50/3 pin & sleeve cord.

One is 40A, one 45A, and the other is 50A.


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[tortuga]

I thought we'd have tons of callbacks complaints etc with all this commercial kitchen GFCI stuff, and
drumroll .... nothing.
Fingers crossed but everything runs along.
Just the cost of the breakers and the lack of GFCI breaker options,
but otherwise no issues for the end customers.
A mfr tech has told me stuff made here for the international market has been 'RCD' compatible for 'decades'.

 

[kwired]

I thought we'd have tons of callbacks complaints etc with all this commercial kitchen GFCI stuff, and
drumroll .... nothing.
Fingers crossed but everything runs along.
Just the cost of the breakers and the lack of GFCI breaker options,
but otherwise no issues for the end customers.
A mfr tech has told me stuff made here for the international market has been 'RCD' compatible for 'decades'.

True but don't RCD's typically trip at 30 mA instead of 4-6 mA?

I don't expect much issues on cooking equipment, possibly more issues with anything with motors or other inductive loads and "inductive kickback or something that gets wet frequently.

 

[electrofelon]

I’ve been doing some checking around today. There are three different manufactures of this equipment, which I did know, but they have varying electrical specs although all of them ship with a 50/3 pin & sleeve cord.

One is 40A, one 45A, and the other is 50A.


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Do you have a ballpark on the cost increase from all this new GFCI stuff for a typical restaurant?

 

[brantmacga]

Probably around $3k or so on a new store.
On the remodel jobs it adds about $1000 in GFI breakers for the circuits we have to relocate and bring into current compliance.

Here’s a pic of a typical gear setup. I think there’s about 28 of the 2-pole and 3-pole GFI breakers in this one. They’re for grills, fryers, coffee makers, and various cord-and-plug cooking equipment.

The top left and top center panelboards are fed with 225A shunt trip breakers.

You’ll have this gear plus two more panelboards that are 225A lighting and 100A dedicated to POS equipment .

This is a Mickey D’s, and of the dozen or so brands we build for they’re the most expensive electrical contract. CFA is a close 2nd. Most of the other fast food restaurants cost anywhere from 80% to 60% of a McD’s.


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[LarryFine]

That looks like it was fun to assemble!

 

[brantmacga]

That looks like it was fun to assemble!

It’s factory built. On that particular gear the left most section shipped separately and I had to bolt it on and run the feeders, but square d shipped the wire for it pre-cut. Setting in place is a PITA though. Sometimes we get lucky and the gear arrives before the steel is set and I’ll swing it in with a lull. Otherwise I have to roll it in the building and use a chain hoist to set it .


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[LarryFine]

It’s factory built.

Where's the factory? That looks like work I could do even with my bad hip.

 

[brantmacga]

Where's the factory? That looks like work I could do even with my bad hip.

I’m not sure. I do believe the modular panelboard assembly is done in the US. This one comes straight from Square D though. You can order them with transformers built in as well.

There are 3rd party companies that offer this same sort of modular assembly like Carolina Products and Park Ohio. I’ve used CPI assemblies in some retail and gas station jobs. Those are usually more specialized for the customer with controls and energy management built into the cabinet assembly. Pretty sure SqD offers that as well but I’ve never used it.

Here’s a pic of a CPI modular assembly from a retail store I built .....

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[Fred B]

Wow, looks like fun, wish I had jobs to walk into that neat, nice. One question, what are the little colored dots applied near the breaker and other terminals for?

 

[brantmacga]

Wow, looks like fun, wish I had jobs to walk into that neat, nice. One question, what are the little colored dots applied near the breaker and other terminals for?

I don’t remember specifically, but I see all of those contactors have the same dots, so likely to speed up troubleshooting? It’s not uncommon though in retail and restaurant environments to see those stickers next to breakers to help staff identify the type of load. For example they might have all interior lighting as a color, all exterior lighting as a color, and then breakdown device types or areas of the store by color.


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