05 NEC handbook 410.4D

[e57]

Anyone got the image of tub and shower fixtures with the 410.4D commentary in the 05 NEC?

From what I'm told it has sconces above the tub, and mentions that the fixtures should be GFI protected???

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Anyone got the image of tub and shower fixtures with the 410.4D commentary in the 05 NEC?

From what I'm told it has sconces above the tub, and mentions that the fixtures should be GFI protected???

The sconces are not above the tub but are within the restricted area defined in 410.4(D). The commentary does not say that GFCI protection is required.

(D) Bathtub and Shower Areas No parts of cord-connected luminaires (fixtures), chain-, cable-, or cord-suspended-luminaires (fixtures), lighting track, pendants, or ceiling-suspended (paddle) fans shall be located within a zone measured 900 mm (3 ft) horizontally and 2.5 m (8 ft) vertically from the top of the bathtub rim or shower stall threshold. This zone is all encompassing and includes the zone directly over the tub or shower stall. Luminaires (lighting fixtures) located in this zone shall be listed for damp locations, or listed for wet locations where subject to shower spray.

Note that the code section does not restrict the installation of wall mounted fixtures.

 

[e57]

The sconces are not above the tub but are within the restricted area defined in 410.4(D). The commentary does not say that GFCI protection is required.

Note that the code section does not restrict the installation of wall mounted fixtures.

Yes I was wondering - where this person (the boss-man) came up with that, as it would be a big change in the code... However it has been 'requested' by many inspectors locally.... We had an inspector make us remove some sconces. So all in all this code has not changed much, ignoring sconces and other types of fixtures - only mentioning those not allowed. Where sconces are a type some inspectors get 'iffy' on... It doesn't mention them - but some think they should not be allowed.

 

[Twoskinsoneman]

Anyone got the image of tub and shower fixtures with the 410.4D commentary in the 05 NEC?

From what I'm told it has sconces above the tub, and mentions that the fixtures should be GFI protected???

A revision of 410.4(D) clarifies that securely fastened lumi-
naires installed in or on the ceiling or wall are permitted to
be located in the bathtub or shower area. Where they are
subject to shower spray, the luminaires must be listed for a
wet location. Luminaires installed in the tub or shower zone
and not subject to shower spray are required to be listed for
use in a damp location. GFCI protection is required only
where specified in the installation instructions for the lumi-
naire.
The intent of 410.4(D) is to keep cord-connected, chain-
hanging, or pendant luminaires and suspended fans out of
the reach of an individual standing on a bathtub rim. The
list of prohibited items recognizes that the same risk of
electric shock is present for each one.
Exhibit 410.1 illustrates the restricted zone in which
the specified luminaires, lighting track, and paddle fans are
prohibited. This requirement applies to hydromassage bath-
tubs, as defined in 680.2, as well as other bathtub types and
shower areas. See 680.43 for installation requirements for
spas and hot tubs (as defined in 680.2) installed indoors.​

 

[cadpoint]

Yes I was wondering - ... However it has been 'requested' by many inspectors locally....

I was just going to say that is what the AHJ has done for you, with or without a amendment ?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

From the 2002 ROP.
18- 10 - (410-4(d)): Reject
SUBMITTER: Peter R. Hawes, Hawes Electric
RECOMMENDATION: Add a new second sentence to read as
follows:
The conductors supplying wall mounted lighting fixtures
located within this zone shall have Ground Fault Circuit
Protection.
SUBSTANTIATION: It may not be practical or even possible
to prohibit wall mounted lighting fixtures from this zone, so at
the very least GFCI protection for personnel should be
required.
PANEL ACTION: Reject.
PANEL STATEMENT: Paragraph 3-3.3 (d) of the NFPA
Regulations Governing Committee Projects requires the
submitter to provide “a statement of the problem and
substantiation”. This proposal contains neither. The submitter
should provide specific examples of the hazards associated with
properly installed wall luminaires suitable for this environment
and cite accident data of such installations.
NUMBER OF PANEL MEMBERS ELIGIBLE TO VOTE: 11
VOTE ON PANEL ACTION:
AFFIRMATIVE: 11
COMMENT ON AFFIRMATIVE:
KEMPEL: Part of the panel's rationale was omitted in the
panel statement. Adding the following paragraph would
convey the complete rationale for the panel action:
“All accessible conductive parts of ceiling or wall (surface or
recessed) luminaires that are likely to become energized are
required by 410-18 to be grounded. The product safety
standards for luminaires also require metal parts that may
become energized to be grounded.”

 

[e57]

I guess this is where he got the GFI thing:

GFCI protection is required only
where specified in the installation instructions for the lumi-
naire.
The intent of 410.4(D) is to keep cord-connected, chain-
hanging, or pendant luminaires and suspended fans out of
the reach of an individual standing on a bathtub rim. The
list of prohibited items recognizes that the same risk of
electric shock is present for each one.

In the past I have had inspectors say that sconces could become a 'grab point' if someone was slipping/falling in the tub - subjecting the fixture to damage at the same point in time when the naked/wet person was yanking an energized fixture off the wall.... Or changing the bulb while bathing.... (Last time we discussed this I found that some singer in the 70's died this rediculous death. )