110.12
- Thread starter wyatt
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Bremerton, Washington
- Occupation
- Master Electrician
Re: 110.12
That would hard to enforce. Our shop wired a habitat for humanity house last year, 3 electricans, 3 technicians. One tech, is pretty sharp, you know the type with the pocket protector (really). He ran his NM at angles across the top of the ceiling joists. We said that was not allowed, he said its the "most logical" as it uses the least wire. But it would fail on workman like.
And this is a true story. This tech lived next door to Gary Larson of the Far Side fame in tacoma for 18 years. Many of the far side cartoons were based on this techs family and events, even down to the names.
Oh, and the Habiatat house was wired under a permit and inspection, we roped two in one very long day.
That would hard to enforce. Our shop wired a habitat for humanity house last year, 3 electricans, 3 technicians. One tech, is pretty sharp, you know the type with the pocket protector (really). He ran his NM at angles across the top of the ceiling joists. We said that was not allowed, he said its the "most logical" as it uses the least wire. But it would fail on workman like.
And this is a true story. This tech lived next door to Gary Larson of the Far Side fame in tacoma for 18 years. Many of the far side cartoons were based on this techs family and events, even down to the names.
Oh, and the Habiatat house was wired under a permit and inspection, we roped two in one very long day.
big john
Senior Member
- Location
- Portland, ME
Re: 110.12
I'm of the mind that 110.2 should be removed from the code.
As much as they may want to, it doesn't seem like it's the place of a CMP to require that the installer take pride in his or her work. :roll:
-John
I'm of the mind that 110.2 should be removed from the code.
As much as they may want to, it doesn't seem like it's the place of a CMP to require that the installer take pride in his or her work. :roll:
-John
Re: 110.12
"He ran his NM at angles across the top of the ceiling joists."
Tom,
Did it fail, or did you rework. I see this all the time.
Worse, I saw a small home builder tie about 15 branch circuits from the panel in a nice bundle for about 30 feet across a basement. I am not sure if it passed or not.
"He ran his NM at angles across the top of the ceiling joists."
Tom,
Did it fail, or did you rework. I see this all the time.
Worse, I saw a small home builder tie about 15 branch circuits from the panel in a nice bundle for about 30 feet across a basement. I am not sure if it passed or not.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: 110.12
Romex has been run the "way the crow flies" since the day one.
A contractor or worker around here, will immediately be broke if they installed the cable any other way.
Romex has been run the "way the crow flies" since the day one.
A contractor or worker around here, will immediately be broke if they installed the cable any other way.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: 110.12
A red tag based on the neat and workman like part of 110.12 indicates only one thing...a lazy inspector. In almost all cases if the work is sloppy there will be violations of "real" code sections that can be cited. If there are no "real violations" there should be no red tag.
What is "sloppy" to one person may be "neat and workman like" to another. The code is a safety code and not an appearance code. The NFPA style manual for the NEC even says that wording like "neat and workman like" should be avoided because it is vague and unenforceable.
Don
A red tag based on the neat and workman like part of 110.12 indicates only one thing...a lazy inspector. In almost all cases if the work is sloppy there will be violations of "real" code sections that can be cited. If there are no "real violations" there should be no red tag.
What is "sloppy" to one person may be "neat and workman like" to another. The code is a safety code and not an appearance code. The NFPA style manual for the NEC even says that wording like "neat and workman like" should be avoided because it is vague and unenforceable.
Don
Re: 110.12
I agree that it is very difficult to enforce the "neat and workmanlike" as it's all subjective to each one of use. But imagine if an installer is left to install to his/her our representation of this requirement. It is most likely that you will see bad habits being introduced through the industry and that the future generation of installers will eventually lose sight on what a good installation should look like.
My 02 cents.
I agree that it is very difficult to enforce the "neat and workmanlike" as it's all subjective to each one of use. But imagine if an installer is left to install to his/her our representation of this requirement. It is most likely that you will see bad habits being introduced through the industry and that the future generation of installers will eventually lose sight on what a good installation should look like.
My 02 cents.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: 110.12
I think the rule for running wiring at right angles to the structure, is a hold over from knob and tube days.
I think the rule for running wiring at right angles to the structure, is a hold over from knob and tube days.
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: 110.12
I think that Don has summed it up very well.
I think that Don has summed it up very well.
A
a.wayne3@verizon.net
Guest
Re: 110.12
With all the homes we wire each year,I have seen everything from romex bombs to wire that looks like it is ironed flat.If an inspector walks in and the first thing he sees is what looks like a sloppy haphazard job then he will find violations.Radius bends,protection,bundling etc.And no need to cite workmanlike manner.We have a bear of an inspector that will pick apart a sloppy job piece by piece.We have allot of piece guys and they pay their red tags.It didn`t take long for their work to improve.Now he passes 80% of the roughs 1st time out and if he finds something he issues a correction notice.Also helps to walk the houses before he gets there.
With all the homes we wire each year,I have seen everything from romex bombs to wire that looks like it is ironed flat.If an inspector walks in and the first thing he sees is what looks like a sloppy haphazard job then he will find violations.Radius bends,protection,bundling etc.And no need to cite workmanlike manner.We have a bear of an inspector that will pick apart a sloppy job piece by piece.We have allot of piece guys and they pay their red tags.It didn`t take long for their work to improve.Now he passes 80% of the roughs 1st time out and if he finds something he issues a correction notice.Also helps to walk the houses before he gets there.
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
- Occupation
- Massachusetts Master Electrician, one man show.
Re: 110.12
Certainly a bogus code rule that can't possibly be enforced with any kind of logic.
Certainly a bogus code rule that can't possibly be enforced with any kind of logic.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: 110.12
I agree with you all the way.
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: 110.12
WARNING, I am shooting from the lip!
I seem to remember that section being removed on several different occasions in the proposal stage of the NEC revision process and there were so many comments against its removal that it was left in. The argument was that it was a part of the original Code and it could be used once in a while where it was needed. The majority of the pressure to leave it in came from the enforcement community.
WARNING, I am shooting from the lip!
I seem to remember that section being removed on several different occasions in the proposal stage of the NEC revision process and there were so many comments against its removal that it was left in. The argument was that it was a part of the original Code and it could be used once in a while where it was needed. The majority of the pressure to leave it in came from the enforcement community.
russ
Senior Member
- Location
- Burbank IL
Re: 110.12
I think as long as there are electricians and inspectors there will be disagreement on the adequacy or need of 110.12.
There seem to be many codes that are design issues more than electrical safty. Rececptacle requirements as far as location is design and common sense and convience. Same for wall switches.
Do you really have to tell somebody that knows what their doing, that thay have to install at least two appliance circuits or a laundry circuit.
As long as there are contractors that will cut every corner, slop it in as fast as they can or employ untrained workers at rock bottom pay, there will be the need to tell them what the standard minimun is that can be installed. For now that includes 110.12 to infer it also be installed neatly.
[ April 11, 2004, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: russ ]
I think as long as there are electricians and inspectors there will be disagreement on the adequacy or need of 110.12.
There seem to be many codes that are design issues more than electrical safty. Rececptacle requirements as far as location is design and common sense and convience. Same for wall switches.
Do you really have to tell somebody that knows what their doing, that thay have to install at least two appliance circuits or a laundry circuit.
As long as there are contractors that will cut every corner, slop it in as fast as they can or employ untrained workers at rock bottom pay, there will be the need to tell them what the standard minimun is that can be installed. For now that includes 110.12 to infer it also be installed neatly.
[ April 11, 2004, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: russ ]
mjf
Senior Member
Re: 110.12
The first things I was taught were:
1. Drill horizontal holes in wall studs at the same height(about thigh high, easy up to switch, easy down to recepticle).
2. Drill holes in joyce parralell to walls (in a straight line).
3. Cleaning up is part of the job.
When your holes are drilled properly its easier to pull wires.
The job comes out nice and neat and you can take pride in your work.
IMO If your not going to take pride in your work than maybe this work is not for you.
IMO once you take shortcuts in your work it becomes easier to take more and more shortcuts and before you know it safety becomes an issue.
What is the big problem with doing a neat professional job?
[ April 11, 2004, 11:11 AM: Message edited by: mjf ]
The first things I was taught were:
1. Drill horizontal holes in wall studs at the same height(about thigh high, easy up to switch, easy down to recepticle).
2. Drill holes in joyce parralell to walls (in a straight line).
3. Cleaning up is part of the job.
When your holes are drilled properly its easier to pull wires.
The job comes out nice and neat and you can take pride in your work.
IMO If your not going to take pride in your work than maybe this work is not for you.
IMO once you take shortcuts in your work it becomes easier to take more and more shortcuts and before you know it safety becomes an issue.
What is the big problem with doing a neat professional job?
[ April 11, 2004, 11:11 AM: Message edited by: mjf ]
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: 110.12
That said IMO 110.12 should go, the people that Charlie said push to keep it in are just the ones that scare me.
IMO that is wrong and has nothing to do with electrical safety.
The people that take pride in their work do not need a code to tell them to do it neat.
The people that do poor work will ignore any code rules.
Absolutely nothing wrong with that
That said IMO 110.12 should go, the people that Charlie said push to keep it in are just the ones that scare me.
IMO that is wrong and has nothing to do with electrical safety.
The people that take pride in their work do not need a code to tell them to do it neat.
The people that do poor work will ignore any code rules.
A
a.wayne3@verizon.net
Guest
Re: 110.12
Wekksaid Bob......That`s why we have articles to enforce workmanship manner without this one being out there. :roll:
Wekksaid Bob......That`s why we have articles to enforce workmanship manner without this one being out there. :roll:
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