12-2 to start 15a circuit
- Thread starter BobbyRay
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ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: 12-2 to start 15a circuit
Why would it not allow this, and why would it be a bad practice?
What if you have a voltage drop issue?
Why would it not allow this, and why would it be a bad practice?
What if you have a voltage drop issue?
physis
Senior Member
Re: 12-2 to start 15a circuit
Why? Because it's good for 5 amps more than it's usually allowed to be used for.
Edit: I primarily use 12 everywhere (residential)and it's a real pleasure when I do use 14 ga. Forcing someone to use larger conductors than necessary is dumb. I'd hate to have to use 10 ga. where I only needed 12 ga. Unless I wanted to. What evil genius came up with this?
[ July 19, 2005, 06:40 PM: Message edited by: physis ]
Why? Because it's good for 5 amps more than it's usually allowed to be used for.
Edit: I primarily use 12 everywhere (residential)and it's a real pleasure when I do use 14 ga. Forcing someone to use larger conductors than necessary is dumb. I'd hate to have to use 10 ga. where I only needed 12 ga. Unless I wanted to. What evil genius came up with this?
[ July 19, 2005, 06:40 PM: Message edited by: physis ]
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: 12-2 to start 15a circuit
The important thing is that the code does not prohibit using larger conductors.
In larger buildings it becomes necessary to run larger conductors. In my area a common job specification requires 20 amp circuits longer than 100' to be run with 10 AWG.
I have also worked in some very large warehouses that the prints showed 4 AWG for many 20 amp receptacles. In that case they left the panel as 10 AWG to a junction box than switched to 4 AWG and of course the reverse was done at the far end.
Bob you will not find a spot in the code that 'allows' using larger conductors.
The important thing is that the code does not prohibit using larger conductors.
In larger buildings it becomes necessary to run larger conductors. In my area a common job specification requires 20 amp circuits longer than 100' to be run with 10 AWG.
I have also worked in some very large warehouses that the prints showed 4 AWG for many 20 amp receptacles. In that case they left the panel as 10 AWG to a junction box than switched to 4 AWG and of course the reverse was done at the far end.
Re: 12-2 to start 15a circuit
The reason for this would be more basic electrical theory necessitated (voltage drop as mentioned before) than code driven.
If it makes you feel better, ( to take Iwires example a little farther) you can start with #14 and finish the run with #12 to accommodate the voltage drop, you simply have to calculate what amount of VD you can tolerate on the #14 to a given distance before you calculate the remainder with the #12 to the total you can live with.
Remember the NEC on recommends a maximum voltage drop figure in an FPN, it doesn't mandate a figure.
Roger
[ July 19, 2005, 07:18 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
The reason for this would be more basic electrical theory necessitated (voltage drop as mentioned before) than code driven.
If it makes you feel better, ( to take Iwires example a little farther) you can start with #14 and finish the run with #12 to accommodate the voltage drop, you simply have to calculate what amount of VD you can tolerate on the #14 to a given distance before you calculate the remainder with the #12 to the total you can live with.
Remember the NEC on recommends a maximum voltage drop figure in an FPN, it doesn't mandate a figure.
Roger
[ July 19, 2005, 07:18 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
Re: 12-2 to start 15a circuit
There is an ignorant and ill informed person. :roll:
rcwilson
Senior Member
- Location
- Redmond, WA
Re: 12-2 to start 15a circuit
Is someone concerned that a later electrician will see #12 and put it on a 20A breaker?
I agree with not using #14.
When my wife and I built our house(3800 sqft including unfinished basement + 3 car garage), I laid out the 42 circuit panel with 20A CB's for all receptacle and lighting circuits and left 6 spares for future use. I spec'ed all #12. When I was out of the country on a project, the EC pulled all #14 (6100 feet of it)except for the range and used every space in the panel. He claimed that 20 A circuits were a problem with the can lights because putting more than 6 or 8 can lights on a circuit made the cans buzz when the lights were on. So he always used 15A & #14 and ran more circuits. We argued. I didn't pay his full bid price. Was he just trying to make pulling easy or was he right and I was wrong?
Is someone concerned that a later electrician will see #12 and put it on a 20A breaker?
I agree with not using #14.
When my wife and I built our house(3800 sqft including unfinished basement + 3 car garage), I laid out the 42 circuit panel with 20A CB's for all receptacle and lighting circuits and left 6 spares for future use. I spec'ed all #12. When I was out of the country on a project, the EC pulled all #14 (6100 feet of it)except for the range and used every space in the panel. He claimed that 20 A circuits were a problem with the can lights because putting more than 6 or 8 can lights on a circuit made the cans buzz when the lights were on. So he always used 15A & #14 and ran more circuits. We argued. I didn't pay his full bid price. Was he just trying to make pulling easy or was he right and I was wrong?
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
Re: 12-2 to start 15a circuit
Someone who does this without checking the circuit shouldn't be called an electrician.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: 12-2 to start 15a circuit
As for your own house in my opinion you are entitled to specify anything you want and the electrician should follow the specifications that they bid to.
An electrician should know better than to change the OCP for a circuit with out knowing how the circuit is wired.
As for your own house in my opinion you are entitled to specify anything you want and the electrician should follow the specifications that they bid to.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: 12-2 to start 15a circuit
I think he just simply didn't read your specs.Unless major price cut i would have said rewire it.
I think he just simply didn't read your specs.Unless major price cut i would have said rewire it.
Re: 12-2 to start 15a circuit
In the house where I lived with my parents back in high school had a 15 amp circuit with a #12 copper home run. Somebody had split the circuit in half and used what they had for the home run. When I got around to changing the electrical service my buddy who was helping me asked why we were using a 15 amp circuit breaker with 20 amp wire.
When I was wiring a factory somebody I know had his kitchen remodeled. He told them to put in 4 circuits for the countertop receptacles rather than 2. Sure enough, these electricians put in 14/3 WG for the home runs and put in 15 amp circuit breakers.
One of the reasons for banning 15 amp wiring is that is the only way that some places can get electricians to put 20 amp wiring into the kitchen, laundry, bathroom, and dining room.
In the house where I lived with my parents back in high school had a 15 amp circuit with a #12 copper home run. Somebody had split the circuit in half and used what they had for the home run. When I got around to changing the electrical service my buddy who was helping me asked why we were using a 15 amp circuit breaker with 20 amp wire.
When I was wiring a factory somebody I know had his kitchen remodeled. He told them to put in 4 circuits for the countertop receptacles rather than 2. Sure enough, these electricians put in 14/3 WG for the home runs and put in 15 amp circuit breakers.
One of the reasons for banning 15 amp wiring is that is the only way that some places can get electricians to put 20 amp wiring into the kitchen, laundry, bathroom, and dining room.
allenwayne
Senior Member
Re: 12-2 to start 15a circuit
We had a builder that spec`d 20 amp #12 branch circuits for all lighting and receptacle outlets.
Several years ago I did a house in a high line subdiviion called Cheval,over 12,000 sq ft single story.
The homeowners wanted all the panels 3 of them to be in the garage.The house was shaped like a giant V.Wouldn`t you know it but the kitchen offices(dedicated computer circuits etc.)
were on the opposite end of the house.Some runs were artound 250-275 ft.Break out the 10/2 at panel these circuits were labeled 20 amp only,small piece of sheathing slipped over the conductor and a sharpie marked both sides of the sheathing 20 amp only.
The sad part was when the shop sent another crew to help pull the # 10 h/r`s,one guy asked why all the 240`s.250 ft runs i answered,I was shocked when he said just put fewer light and receptacles on that crcuit :roll:
We had a builder that spec`d 20 amp #12 branch circuits for all lighting and receptacle outlets.
Several years ago I did a house in a high line subdiviion called Cheval,over 12,000 sq ft single story.
The homeowners wanted all the panels 3 of them to be in the garage.The house was shaped like a giant V.Wouldn`t you know it but the kitchen offices(dedicated computer circuits etc.)
were on the opposite end of the house.Some runs were artound 250-275 ft.Break out the 10/2 at panel these circuits were labeled 20 amp only,small piece of sheathing slipped over the conductor and a sharpie marked both sides of the sheathing 20 amp only.
The sad part was when the shop sent another crew to help pull the # 10 h/r`s,one guy asked why all the 240`s.250 ft runs i answered,I was shocked when he said just put fewer light and receptacles on that crcuit :roll:
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