12 v Lighting on the outside wall of a pool

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WinZip

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Here is one for you

A gunite pool that the rear side of the pool is built out of ground approx 4 feet and the contractor wants to put 4 - 12 volt round puck deck lights on the outside wall of this pool, now using a special low voltage transformer you can be within 5 feet of the pool but what about on the pool wall itself.

Below is an article on the 5 foot rule



Section 680.22(B)(4) permits luminaires to be installed within 5 to 10 feet horizontally of the pool?s edge only where a ground-fault circuit interrupter (GFCI) protects the luminaires. Since low-voltage landscape luminaires are supplied by a low-voltage power supply, such as a transformer, providing GFCI protection on the primary side of an isolation transformer will not provide GFCI protection on the secondary side. GFCI devices will not operate at the 15-volts or less supplied by the secondary of the power supply. This leaves only two options: one is to locate all low-voltage landscape lighting at least 10 feet from the pool or fountain edge; or, two, to use a special power supply.


There are low-voltage lighting power units that are marked ?For Use with Submersible Fixtures or Submersible Pumps.? In this case, a special transformer is used that complies with the requirements in 680.23 for underwater luminaires installed below the normal water level of the pool. This transformer is specifically listed for this use and is an isolated winding type transformer with an ungrounded secondary similar to the low-voltage landscape lighting transformer, as required by 411.5(B).
 
If the lights are 15 volts or less and not in the pool water then I don't believe there is any code against them. I believe I would use a trany than was swimming pool or spa listed.
 
I can't see where the Code specifically addresses area fixtures with a operating voltage below 15 volts.
That said, I don't see where 680.22(C) allows ANY fixture to be within 5 ft of the inside wall of the pool unless it is 12ft in height.
Since 680.23 allows an underwater fixture to be operated on a listed swimming pool transformer one might be tempted to allow the install, but if the were not listed for swimmimng pool installations it seems questionable.
I would also question if the fixtures were meatllic and if so you would think they would need approved bonding means to be used at the pool.
 
Not sure that I understand the installation. Does this lighting fall under Article 411? If so you'll need 10' from the nearest edge of the water. 411.4(B).
 
411.4 {b} refers to to 680 which refers you to listed below.



Section 680.22(B)(4) permits luminaires to be installed within 5 to 10 feet horizontally of the pool?s edge only where a ground-fault circuit interrupter (GFCI) protects the luminaires. Since low-voltage landscape luminaires are supplied by a low-voltage power supply, such as a transformer, providing GFCI protection on the primary side of an isolation transformer will not provide GFCI protection on the secondary side. GFCI devices will not operate at the 15-volts or less supplied by the secondary of the power supply. This leaves only two options: one is to locate all low-voltage landscape lighting at least 10 feet from the pool or fountain edge; or, two, to use a special power supply.


There are low-voltage lighting power units that are marked ?For Use with Submersible Fixtures or Submersible Pumps.? In this case, a special transformer is used that complies with the requirements in 680.23 for underwater luminaires installed below the normal water level of the pool. This transformer is specifically listed for this use and is an isolated winding type transformer with an ungrounded secondary similar to the low-voltage landscape lighting transformer, as required by 411.5(B).
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There simply can not be a low volt light within 10 feet. The only lights allowed are the ones built into the pool and they are designed for this purpose. They also have isolated windings and the transformers and light fixture are bonded with #8 solid green wire. I know of no other lights that are permitted for pool within that first 5 feet
 
Thanks guy,s

It's a gray area from what I read , only thing I know to do is run it by our inspector an either he says yes-no chances are he will say NO.

Never ending battle haaaaaaa

WinZIP
 
I think you are trying to "sell us" :)
just the opinion of this 1 inspector, 1st: I would accept it if it meets the requirements of 680.22(C)(4). and, if metallic 680.26.
(C)(4) calls for GFCI ..so if it's not there it would not be acceptable...
the final decision is, of course, up to your AHJ.
 
No I am not trying to sell anyone just trying to find the answer.

The fixture is metallic an would be fed from a transformer an GFCI protected receptacle and the only possiable loop hole I see for mounting a 12v low voltage fixture on the outher side wall of a gunnite pool is listed below.


There are low-voltage lighting power units that are marked ?For Use with Submersible Fixtures or Submersible Pumps.? In this case, a special transformer is used that complies with the requirements in 680.23 for underwater luminaires installed below the normal water level of the pool. This transformer is specifically listed for this use and is an isolated winding type transformer with an ungrounded secondary similar to the low-voltage landscape lighting transformer, as required by 411.5(B). The low-voltage pool lighting transformer has one additional feature in its design. It has a grounded metal barrier or shield between the primary and the secondary. This metal barrier or shield prevents a direct internal short between the primary and the secondary of the transformer. If a short does occur on the primary side, it will short to the metal shield and the primary overcurrent protective device will operate. If a short develops on the secondary side to the shield, the secondary overcurrent protective device, if provided, will operate. If there isn?t a secondary overcurrent protective device and the primary is providing protection through the transformer, the primary device should operate.
 
I understand all of the above but many inspectors are "bottom line" guys...
The transformer you describe is not a "listed swimming pool transformer" and the requirements of 680.22 have not been satisfied without the GFCI.
I personally think you have addressed the "safety issues" of the situation but still don't think it meets Code.
My opinion is that you have a situation that is not addressed directly by the NEC, but in that it does not meet the existing requirements, I could not accept it.
I may have missed it, but from reading the IAEI article I did not find where that author stated it was acceptable either.
 
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I understand all of the above but many inspectors are "bottom line" guys...
The transformer you describe is not a "listed swimming pool transformer" and the requirements of 680.22 have not been satisfied without the GFCI.
I personally think you have addressed the "safety issues" of the situation but still don't think it meets Code.
My opinion is that you have a situation that is not addressed directly by the NEC, but in that it does not meet the existing requirements, I could not accept it.
I may have missed it, but from reading the IAEI article I did not find where that author stated it was acceptable either.

Hi Augie,
I tend to agree with what you said and that the NEC really needs to address this issue , but still baffles me that you can use 12 v fixtures in a pool or spa combo with the proper XFMR but you can not use 12 v lighting closer than 10 feet to a pool using the same XFMR

Havent got a rulling on this yet but will let you know when i do!
 
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WinZip said:
Hi Augie,
I tend to agree with what you said and that the NEC really needs to address this issue , but still baffles me that you can use 12 v fixtures in a pool or spa combo with the proper XFMR but you can not use 12 v lighting closer than 10 feet to a pool using the same XFMR

Havent got a rulling on this yet but will let you know when i do!
Click to expand...

WinZip, The only difference that I see is that the 12v. lighting in a spa is part of the package, and thus fed from the same GFCI protected supply that protects and feeds all parts of the spa. Whereas, a 12v. light on the outside of the pool is fed from its own branch circuit. To me the difference is that if a fault were to occur in the lighting component of the spa package, ALL power to the spa is likely to be disconnected. I'm afraid I'm not splainin' myself the way I want...
 
there is CLEARLY no way that others or myself have found that allows any light fixture to be mounted on the outside wall of a pool either 12 Volt GFCI protected or 120 Volt GfCI protected, I have just be trying to find a way to do this but it dose not exist.

I am sorry if I have wasted anyone's time on this issue.
 
WinZip said:
there is CLEARLY no way that others or myself have found that allows any light fixture to be mounted on the outside wall of a pool either 12 Volt GFCI protected or 120 Volt GfCI protected, I have just be trying to find a way to do this but it dose not exist.

I am sorry if I have wasted anyone's time on this issue.
Click to expand...

I agree that the NEC has yet to make this workable. And you're not wasting anyone's time.
 
You certainly didn't waste my time. I had a productive browse through Art 680 trying to see if there was some way to make this acceptable.
 
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