16,000A service 480Y/277V

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anbm

Senior Member
If we need a 16,000Amp (480Y/277V) service for a new building, should we use (4) 4,000A switchboards main-tie-main as a loop to serve whole building?

Or should we use (2) 4,000A switchboards (main-tie-main) to serve half building and (2) 4,000A main-tie-main switchboards to serve the remain half of building?

Anyone has a better design/concept?
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
Much depends on the nature of the load, the need for reliability, and the degree to which the owner can tolerate outages. For example, a set of four 4000 amp boards set up in any type of M-T-M configuration will not be able to supply 100% of the load, should any of the service conductor sets or any of the main breakers be taken out of commission. If this were a data center or other facility that needed to remain in full operation 24/7/365, I might consider a total of eight 4000 amp boards. There would be four sets of M-T-M boards, with each set comprising two 4000 amp boards, so that if one half were out of service, the other half could supply the entire 4000 amps.
 

iwire

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Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
It seems unlikely to me that placing all '16,000 amps' of 480 volts at one location will be the most cost effective way of doing things.

We did a large building that had seven 3,000 amp feeders to it but we ran high voltage around the perimeter and dropped off a pad mount transformer at various locations where they would be the most effective.
 

skeshesh

Senior Member
Location
Los Angeles, Ca
It seems unlikely to me that placing all '16,000 amps' of 480 volts at one location will be the most cost effective way of doing things.

We did a large building that had seven 3,000 amp feeders to it but we ran high voltage around the perimeter and dropped off a pad mount transformer at various locations where they would be the most effective.

As mentioned the specifics of the project will dictate the best approach, but iwire's point is generally a valid one even if you don't see a big merit at the time of installation. Having a medium voltage feed available around the building for future expansions as well as having the stepped down distribution available at various points around a big building can save quite a bit of pain and cost in the years down the line.
 

anbm

Senior Member
This is the future hospital, they build half space now and the other half in future,
one central plant to serve all load. Of course they will have generators for emergency load by code.

So, I am not sure it's better to do (4) 4,000A switchboards tie together serving both current and future spaces... or separate future spaces on separate switchboards.
 

anbm

Senior Member
It seems unlikely to me that placing all '16,000 amps' of 480 volts at one location will be the most cost effective way of doing things.

We did a large building that had seven 3,000 amp feeders to it but we ran high voltage around the perimeter and dropped off a pad mount transformer at various locations where they would be the most effective.

Did those (7) 3,000 boards connect together via tie breaker or they are independent?
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
This is the future hospital, they build half space now and the other half in future,
one central plant to serve all load. Of course they will have generators for emergency load by code.

So, I am not sure it's better to do (4) 4,000A switchboards tie together serving both current and future spaces... or separate future spaces on separate switchboards.

I am a fan of not trying to guess what they might need in the future and just allow whatever they need to be added down the road. I would be inclined to maybe having some kind of tiepoint to hook to future switchboards to simplify connections when they tie in the new stuff down the road. But I don't think i would want to supply switchgear today for it.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Did those (7) 3,000 boards connect together via tie breaker or they are independent?

All independent (on the load side).

Lets say you do install one switchboard rated 16,000 amps ......... don't you think it is going to be difficult, take a up a lot of room and be costly to distribute all that power to all the places it needs to be from that one location?
 

__dan

Senior Member
I'm assuming there will be dual, isolated, or triple, isolated, primary feed if available from the utility. True dual primary, the utility should be able to show statistical studies showing primary A is isolated from outages on primary B and the reverse, B is up when A is down. Then the switchboards could be 2N, able to select pri A or pri B, or 3N with available pri A, pri B, or generator. I would want to look at high resistance grounding with ground current monitoring at the N to G jumper, sources Y, loads delta, no line to neutral connected loads, at the main dual source switchboards.

Then look at the loads and see how much can be run at primary class voltage, probably 5 kV, maybe 15 kV class equipment. The chillers, the large water pumps, the floor to floor riser busway, the generators, large compressors, maybe could be all direct 5 kV native delta, making the 2N switchboards withs rows of ATS's 3 pole 3 wire 5 kV class equipment.

I would want to try to trade more copper for more insulation, more space, and much reduced arc flash potential at the switchboards.

Look at the loads and see how much you can run at 5 kV native and what is offered in the market for switchboards. I do not know where the market is relative to the choice of 5 kV or 15 kV switchboards, generators, inside per floor transformers, and loads.

I cannot imagine there are a lot of loads that can run 1 N and keep the doors open when that source is down. A high reliability system is very saleable.
 

anbm

Senior Member
All independent (on the load side).

Lets say you do install one switchboard rated 16,000 amps ......... don't you think it is going to be difficult, take a up a lot of room and be costly to distribute all that power to all the places it needs to be from that one location?

Each 4,000A switchboard is fed out of a dedicated utility transformer.
All four switchboards are located in the same room.
 

Cow

Senior Member
Location
Eastern Oregon
Occupation
Electrician
All in the same spot?

I bet that takes a ton of room....but they can always call that end of the hospital the "electrical wing/spaghetti factory/cluster****"
 
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