180 VA per light ? (even LED lights?)

[Stevenfyeager]

I had an elec inspector 3 years ago check my load on a circuit. We were in a remodeling job and we added a few recessed lights for the customer. I don't remember the number but it was on a 15 amp, #14 ga circuit. He was adding existing items and said each light will need 180 VA. There were a few existing outlets too. We used LED recessed light fixtures and changed existing ones. The panel was at the other end of the house, not accessible. It was close to not passing.
Now, in new houses and room additions I use #14 ga wire for lighting and come now where near overloading since we use all LED. But if incandescent lights were substituted, I think I could be in trouble. Do you have a guideline you use ? Thank you

 

[Fred B]

I had an elec inspector 3 years ago check my load on a circuit. We were in a remodeling job and we added a few recessed lights for the customer. I don't remember the number but it was on a 15 amp, #14 ga circuit. He was adding existing items and said each light will need 180 VA. There were a few existing outlets too. We used LED recessed light fixtures and changed existing ones. The panel was at the other end of the house, not accessible. It was close to not passing.
Now, in new houses and room additions I use #14 ga wire for lighting and come now where near overloading since we use all LED. But if incandescent lights were substituted, I think I could be in trouble. Do you have a guideline you use ? Thank you

I've been told that the requirements as stated were going to be addressed in the 2020 code as the older codes didn't address or acknowledge the lower loads associated with LED usage. I dont know if they did or not. Arguements have been for calculation purposes that a bulb type lighting can be interchanged and add a higher demand bulb, and thus potentially overload.

 

[petersonra]

Another case of the code panels going into design rather than safety. If the circuits are overloaded in an unsafe way the overcurrent protection device will trip and prevent an unsafe condition.

 

[Fred B]

Another case of the code panels going into design rather than safety. If the circuits are overloaded in an unsafe way the overcurrent protection device will trip and prevent an unsafe condition.

Tripping of breaker from an overload is a last resort, all efforts should be placed to avoid it, not see how close you can get without it tripping. Looking at calculated loads to allow margin of error is probably a better practice. This arguement might be interpreted to justify NOT modifying codes to recognize the lower demands of LED lighting.

 

[James L]

I had an elec inspector 3 years ago check my load on a circuit. We were in a remodeling job and we added a few recessed lights for the customer. I don't remember the number but it was on a 15 amp, #14 ga circuit. He was adding existing items and said each light will need 180 VA. There were a few existing outlets too. We used LED recessed light fixtures and changed existing ones. The panel was at the other end of the house, not accessible. It was close to not passing.
Now, in new houses and room additions I use #14 ga wire for lighting and come now where near overloading since we use all LED. But if incandescent lights were substituted, I think I could be in trouble. Do you have a guideline you use ? Thank you

I was just looking at this the other day, and it states you use the maximum rating of the fixture. I'll find it.

Most can lights are 75w

 

[James L]

2017 nec
220.14(d)

 

[Stevenfyeager]

2017 nec
220.14(d)

Thank you. I had better reconsider how I wire lighting circuits.

 

[James L]

Thank you. I had better reconsider how I wire lighting circuits.

I was taught a long time ago to count each can light as 1/2 opening.

If each opening counts as 180va (or 1.5 amps each), you can put up to 10 openings on a 15 amp circuit. Or 20 can lights if each one is 1/2

I've done a few remodel projects using Title 24 compliant recessed lights, which have only the orange Ideal 30-682 luminaire disconnect (no edison socket).

I really have no idea what would be the maximum rating if using those cans, but it might be worth looking into.

fwiw, I have never even once seen an inspector check the load on a residential circuit.

 

[drcampbell]

... Most can lights are 75w.

Perhaps the most widely-ignored limit since the 55 mi/hr speed limit of 1974.

Now that 75-watt incandescent lightbulbs are no longer readily available, perhaps we should provide the capacity for homeowners to install 150-watt incandescent lightbulbs in each fixture?

 

[James L]

Perhaps the most widely-ignored limit since the 55 mi/hr speed limit of 1974.

Now that 75-watt incandescent lightbulbs are no longer readily available, perhaps we should provide the capacity for homeowners to install 150-watt incandescent lightbulbs in each fixture?

Yeah, I'd hate to be using those Juno tc2 that are rated at 150w, and only be able to put nine of them on a circuit using 8 watt LED trims.

Can you imagine having to use a contactor if somebody wanted a dozen of those on a pair of 3-way switches? Total 96w of LED

 

[kwired]

Yeah, I'd hate to be using those Juno tc2 that are rated at 150w, and only be able to put nine of them on a circuit using 8 watt LED trims.

Can you imagine having to use a contactor if somebody wanted a dozen of those on a pair of 3-way switches? Total 96w of LED

But the max rating is usually based on the trim being used. An 8 watt LED trim would be 8 watts. A 75 watt trim with medium base lampholder is 75 watts though you might put an 8 watt LED lamp in it.

That said, isn't the 180VA per outlet more of a generic figure to use if actual load is unknown?

If actual load is more than 180VA (which it often was when HID's were pretty common) you did use the luminaire rating

 

[James L]

But the max rating is usually based on the trim being used. An 8 watt LED trim would be 8 watts. A 75 watt trim with medium base lampholder is 75 watts though you might put an 8 watt LED lamp in it.

That said, isn't the 180VA per outlet more of a generic figure to use if actual load is unknown?

If actual load is more than 180VA (which it often was when HID's were pretty common) you did use the luminaire rating

180va is for receptacles.

Luminaries are supposed to be calculated according to the max rating.

If circuits are loaded according to square footage, it's 3va per. That means no more that 480 square feet per circuit, and it's also required to be evenly distributed among the circuits

 

[steve66]

Another case of the code panels going into design rather than safety. If the circuits are overloaded in an unsafe way the overcurrent protection device will trip and prevent an unsafe condition.

Overcurrent devices are not immune to failure.

If you are saying that these are actually LED fixtures, there is no reason to count a typical recessed LED fixture at 180 watts.

Now if its a typically light fixture with a screw in LED lamp, then the fixture would be counted at the maximum lamp rating.

 

[kwired]

180va is for receptacles.

Luminaries are supposed to be calculated according to the max rating.

If circuits are loaded according to square footage, it's 3va per. That means no more that 480 square feet per circuit, and it's also required to be evenly distributed among the circuits

Looking back, though not at every code, 1987 NEC just mentioned "other outlets" @ 180VA, which then lighting outlets were not in the list of items that did have specific values assigned to them so it would have applied to lighting outlets. Not sure when that changed but sticks in my mind some because that was the way it was when I first learned this trade, though we generally didn't strictly follow that 180 VA per outlet either. I do remember it was often overkill and we generally would go with actual luminaire rating quite often, but then if you were installing say some 400 watt HID's you better figure off rated VA or you will be short on circuit capacity pretty quickly.