1948 Trumbull Electric swith gear safety

[Stickley]

Ok so I just began doing maintenance for this company that has Trumbull switch gear from 1948. There are 3 main breakers the feed separate buss ducts throughout the facility. The one that I am curious about is a 1600A air circuit breaker with an oil filled dash pot. Now my issue is come to find out this breaker has never been serviced or tested since its installation in 1948. I?ve heard from a few different sources that this could be a catastrophe waiting to happen.

Anyone had any experiences with these in the past? Or can provide some possible information about the service that needs to be done on these breakers. If it was my way I would just have to entire thing replaced however no one wants to spend the money to do so. Also I am going to be doing a shut down on the service on June 15th so I will post pictures after.

Thanks

 

[cdslotz]

Are you shutting down to do service on it or add or rearrange something in that board?

Personally I wouldn't touch that piece of gear. If I had work to do in that board or they wanted to it serviced, just to know if that 1600A breaker is "good", my price would include an independent testing agency to do a complete maintenance service. Companies like Shermco (in my area) or, since Trumble is GE, I might call GE Services.
Neither will be cheap, but it will be cheaper than new replacement.
Plus, your liability is mitigated.

 

[Stickley]

Are you shutting down to do service on it or add or rearrange something in that board?<br>
<br>
Personally I wouldn't touch that piece of gear. If I had work to do in that board or they wanted to it serviced, just to know if that 1600A breaker is "good", my price would include an independent testing agency to do a complete maintenance service. Companies like Shermco (in my area) or, since Trumble is GE, I might call GE Services.<br>
Neither will be cheap, but it will be cheaper than new replacement.<br>
Plus, your liability is mitigated.

<br><br>

I am shutting it down to do a clean the 2inches of dust off all the buss and also to do functionality test to see if the breaker will even cycle. As far as i know it has never been cycled since installation. Now ive read some information on the oil dash pot that says the oil (which is a PCB i guess) can turn to sludge and will not trip under a fault condition. It that true?

 

[jim dungar]

...will not trip under a fault condition. It that true?

Yes.

Personally I do not believe you wiil get your breaker to open and then close properly. I would not turn it off without having a repair crew, and replacement breaker, present.

 

[Stickley]

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These are some pictures from the same gear just the 600A and 400A breakers

 

[Stickley]

Thank you for the information. This old gear is a new one for me. Sorry if the pictures are bad quality had to sneak them.

 

[Stickley]

Sorry i am still new this site. Reposting pictures

 

[ATSman]

Testing Evaluation

Testing Evaluation

<br><br>

I am shutting it down to do a clean the 2inches of dust off all the buss and also to do functionality test to see if the breaker will even cycle. As far as i know it has never been cycled since installation. Now ive read some information on the oil dash pot that says the oil (which is a PCB i guess) can turn to sludge and will not trip under a fault condition. It that true?

This board was installed the year I was born!! And that is too old! Ha!
The pics you show are of the bus and molded case breakers (I did not see the main with dashpots.) The MC breakers have thermal and electro-magnet elements for the overcurrent and instantaneous fault protection. They should be high current tested by a certified co. (like CDSLOTZ suggested) to prove they will trip on a fault. If good then take off covers for a good cleaning, ductor and megger test. If they fail any of these tests then it may be cheaper to replace the whole switchboard rather than trying to replace them.
As for the main, dashpots were used in air frame breakers before the pneumatic/ electro-magnetic (series trip) trip units came out. And yes after 65 years I am sure the oil is all dried and a pile of sludge. They can be refurbished if the metal pots are intact and not corroded thru.
Only through testing and evaluation like this can it be determined if the equipment is worth refurbishing or if it makes more sense to replace it.

 

[Stickley]

This board was installed the year I was born!! And that is too old! Ha!
The pics you show are of the bus and molded case breakers (I did not see the main with dashpots.) The MC breakers have thermal and electro-magnet elements for the overcurrent and instantaneous fault protection. They should be high current tested by a certified co. (like CDSLOTZ suggested) to prove they will trip on a fault. If good then take off covers for a good cleaning, ductor and megger test. If they fail any of these tests then it may be cheaper to replace the whole switchboard rather than trying to replace them.
As for the main, dashpots were used in air frame breakers before the pneumatic/ electro-magnetic (series trip) trip units came out. And yes after 65 years I am sure the oil is all dried and a pile of sludge. They can be refurbished if the metal pots are intact and not corroded thru.
Only through testing and evaluation like this can it be determined if the equipment is worth refurbishing or if it makes more sense to replace it.

The pictures i have right now are the two smaller breakers below the 1600A. I didn't want to open up the 1600A because i am unsure of its current condition. I am shutting down the service on the 15th so i can clean the interior and determine the condition of the breaker. I will post pictures after. Thanks for all the good information there is not a lot of info out there so i've been having trouble tracking anything down.

 

[zbang]

From the sound of it, you're having the PoCo pull the service so the entire switchboard is really dead. Yes? (Otherwise, you're into remote actuators to even turn off the breakers safely, which is assuming they turn off at all.) It would be better to have everything serviced, or at least examined, during the shutdown. I'm probably preaching to the choir, but planning is important to making to all this happen efficiently (temporary lighting? power for the vacuum?).

Making the assumption that something will need further attention, I'd put a second shutdown on the schedule now to take care of any service that can't be done during the first shutdown. It's much easier to cancel the second if you don't need it than to put it in on short notice.

 

[Stickley]

Thanks for all the info. We are hopefully bringing out someone to inspect the breaker and depending on the results we will be doing another shut to service the equipment. I will post pictures of the breaker itself after the shut down.

 

[zog]

The pictures i have right now are the two smaller breakers below the 1600A. I didn't want to open up the 1600A because i am unsure of its current condition. I am shutting down the service on the 15th so i can clean the interior and determine the condition of the breaker. I will post pictures after. Thanks for all the good information there is not a lot of info out there so i've been having trouble tracking anything down.

Give these guys a call, http://www.westernelectricalservices.com/

 

[Fulthrotl]

Yes.

Personally I do not believe you wiil get your breaker to open and then close properly. I would not turn it off without having a repair crew, and replacement breaker, present.

after catastrophic failure concerns, this would be my primary concern as well.

what strategy do you have in place bright and early saturday morning, if you
try to cycle this thing, and it doesn't open fully, making it unable to reclose?
if it really never has been cycled, it may be rusted in place, and if you trip it,
it may be stuck released, but won't open to be reset. now you can't close it,
you are just stuck.

i had to rebuild an ATS at a kaiser hospital once, that had welded itself
to the alternate power position, so the hospital was running on genset
power. life safety was on this for the surgical wing, etc. while not the same
thing, the sucky factor is similar.

zog posted a link to someone. if i were you, i'd call them. since i've been
on this forum, i've never seen him post something that wasn't spot on.

note: while you are peeking in and around this stuff.... are you wearing
PPE?

 

[Stickley]

after catastrophic failure concerns, this would be my primary concern as well.

what strategy do you have in place bright and early saturday morning, if you
try to cycle this thing, and it doesn't open fully, making it unable to reclose?
if it really never has been cycled, it may be rusted in place, and if you trip it,
it may be stuck released, but won't open to be reset. now you can't close it,
you are just stuck.

i had to rebuild an ATS at a kaiser hospital once, that had welded itself
to the alternate power position, so the hospital was running on genset
power. life safety was on this for the surgical wing, etc. while not the same
thing, the sucky factor is similar.

zog posted a link to someone. if i were you, i'd call them. since i've been
on this forum, i've never seen him post something that wasn't spot on.

note: while you are peeking in and around this stuff.... are you wearing
PPE?

This situation has def surpassed my knowledge so i have actually been in contact with Western electrical services and we are in the process of getting a quote from them. With all the responses and my concerns i have choose not to cycle it in fear that it may never come back on. Also I dont want to be responsible for the plant not being able to run as a result.

Oh yes i am wearing full PPE. I seen someone get badly hurt during an arc flash and now i wont open any live panel or gear with out it.

 

[Stickley]

Finally got a few pictures of the actual 1600A breaker. Not a whole lot to see but still very interesting.

 

[zog]

Thats an old GE AL-2-50, have some of those already retrofitted with modern electronic trip units, I would be amazed if those old OD's still function

 

[Stickley]

Thats an old GE AL-2-50, have some of those already retrofitted with modern electronic trip units, I would be amazed if those old OD's still function

Who makes a retro for this old breaker? I am trying to explore my options baised cost and Pros/cons about doing the retro or having it replaced.

 

[sparkyrick]

<br><br>

I am shutting it down to do a clean the 2inches of dust off all the buss and also to do functionality test to see if the breaker will even cycle. As far as i know it has never been cycled since installation. Now ive read some information on the oil dash pot that says the oil (which is a PCB i guess) can turn to sludge and will not trip under a fault condition. It that true?

Hopefully it resets. I hate cycling old equipment, knowing it might not reset. Been there, done that.

 

[zog]

Who makes a retro for this old breaker? I am trying to explore my options baised cost and Pros/cons about doing the retro or having it replaced.

GE used to (Mine has a RMS-9) but don't think they support AL's at all anymore. URC makes kits for these.

 

[jim dungar]

Who makes a retro for this old breaker? I am trying to explore my options baised cost and Pros/cons about doing the retro or having it replaced.

You can have your particular breaker rebuilt with an upgraded trip unit but that often takes more than 1 day. Another option is to replace, or retrofit, a new generation breaker into the space of the existing unit with some minor modifications to the existing bus bar.

Contact your local switchgear service shop. This is a routine operation from them regardless of the existing manufacturer.