1960 NEC Question re:issues observed @ an existing residence??

[GuyerInspections]

I recently inspected a single family residence built in 1961 in Ventura, CA.

Specific Observations:
1. Observed a recent addition of a garage subpanel, with breakers labeled for various garage circuits & garage area laundry circuit. The installed breakers for that laundry circuit had no conductor connections at the time of the inspection.

2. Upon testing the existing garage laundry outlets (in use), I discovered that they were connected to the Kitchen countertop wall GFI outlet. Upon using a GFI-testor, the Kitchen's GFI outlet did trip. When it tripped, it knocked out power for the Laundry 120v outlet, all the Kitchen's 120v outlets and the Kitchen's undercabinet appliance outlets (ie: disposal & dishwasher) and the adjacent breakfast room wall outlets.

3. Upon testing the GFI wall outlet in the Hall Bathroom, the GFI-testor tripped that outlet which also shut-off power to the 2nd Bath (masterbath), and also power in Bedroom #1 and ALSO the forced air furnace power supply??


My Observations & Recommendations were that the Kitchen Appliances should be on their own 20A circuit, as should be the Laundry outlet, the Bathroom wall outlet circuit and the power supply circuit for the Forced Air Natural-Gas Fired Furnace in the interior hall utility closet.

I indicated that the recent addition of that Garage Subpanel, would have required a Mechanical Permit & Inspection. All labeled and/or affected circuits to that new subpanel, should have surely been examined. IF the Permit had been applied for & the installation inspected by a local Bldg & Safety Jurisdiction Inspector.

A local electrician, hired by the seller's Real Estate Agent, submitted the following:

"The home was built in 1961. At that time, the Building & Safety Codes did not require a Single-Family dwelling to have any of the following items:

(1) Dedicated appliance circuits. (ie: washer, dryer, refrigerator, garbage disposal, and furnace).


QUESTION....I don't have a 1960 Electric Code Book, but I would like to hear what the Code said at that time regarding branch circuits and equipment & appliance circuits??

Feedback would be most appreciated.

Thank You.

Bob
Simi Valley, CA.

 

[electricmanscott]

Sounds about right for an old house. And this house is pretty old. Your recomendations are fine. What was required in 1960 I don't know since that was almost a half century ago. What I do know is that in my area there is no reason to make these corrections unless you want to. If I were selling a house and this was recomended by a home inspector I would not be having these upgrades done.
In my experience people tend to take the inspectors word as the law. They feel that since it is in the report it must be fixed or you must deduct the cost of the repairs from the price of the home. To that I say hogwash. If your buying a 47 year old house you get 47 year old issues. You want A house built to todays standards buy a new house.

 

[tallgirl]

When I was a kid we lived in a house built in 1926. I believe it had four or six Edison type fuses for the entire 5 bedroom, 3 1/2 story house.

We blew fuses on a regular basis.

If you want my opinion, which is worth about $0.02 -- the laundry circuit should be finished or the breaker removed. That's it. I do a lot of work (such as "a lot" ever is for someone who volunteers at this ...) on houses that were running just fine on 4 20A circuits up until they were submerged under 10' of water.

On the subject of electrical in old houses, I'd be more concerned about the house having ever had a fire than the small number of circuits. My experience is that fire damage does more to electrical wiring than anything else (besides rats and hurricanes ...), and if all you're looking at is the panel you're missing a great opportunity to find charred wires in the attic. The other thing I'd be looking at long before the number of circuits in the panel is the condition of ALL of the wiring going into ALL of the switches and receptacles.

 

[lowryder88h]

1960

1960

guyinspections, Here in Mass, 527 CMR 12.00: 2005 Mass electrical code (amendments) state in Rule 4. Where an actual hazard exists, the owner of the property shall be notified in writing by the authority enforcing this code. This is something you may check w/ your local authority.

 

[al hildenbrand]

There was no "1960 NEC".

The 1959 NEC may have been enforced in that area, at that time, but only local historic record will verify which, if any, NEC was enforced.

As for the contractor saying:

"The home was built in 1961. At that time, the Building & Safety Codes did not require a Single-Family dwelling to have any of the following items:

(1) Dedicated appliance circuits. (ie: washer, dryer, refrigerator, garbage disposal, and furnace).

Well, that is very mis-leading. Look at what the 1959 NEC does require of the Small Appliance Circuits.

1959 NEC

220-3. Branch Circuits Required. Branch circuits shall be installed as follows:

(a) Lighting and Appliance Circuits. . . .

(b) Receptacle Circuits, Dwelling Occupancies. For the small appliance load in kitchen, laundry, pantry, dining-room and breakfast-room of dwelling occupancies, two or more 20 ampere branch circuits in addition to the branch circuits specified in Paragraph 220-3(a) shall be provided for all receptacle outlets (other than outlets for clocks) in these rooms, and such circuits shall have no other outlets.

(c) Other Circuits. . . .

Regardless of what the 1959 NEC says, the real question becomes when were the dishwasher, disposal, etc. installed. I'll bet a bunch of that wiring occured at different times, and under different Codes, than the original construction. The Code(s) in effect at the time of installation are what govern whether this wiring configuration is the DIY hack that it reads to be.

 

[e57]

Looks like Al has the code answer for you. But I will ditto Scotts take on it.

BTW this post is in the wrong catagory....

 

[George Stolz]

Al, have I told you lately what a stud you are?

Does that sound odd, coming from another dude?

 

[tallgirl]

Al, have I told you lately what a stud you are?

Does that sound odd, coming from another dude?

Get in touch with your feminine side, George. Wear pink. Kiss more babies. Watch "Steel Magnolias".

And I'm also impressed as all get out at Al having the 1959 NEC available for quoting. That trumps any documentation packratting I've got going.

Urph. I forgot what I really wanted to ask --

Al, where did you find that? One of my "duties" in New Orleans is "building assessments" and being able to dig up old building and electrical codes could be very helpful in saying "We shouldn't get involved in this building because it's hopeless."

 

[al hildenbrand]

Thanks, George.

No, it's not strange.

Julie,

I've patiently checked in on www.bibliofind.com as well as having a standing "My eBay" search on "National Electrical Code" for years now. There are other book resellers listing sites that I can't think of at the moment.

At this point, the copies of the Code that I am looking for are generally selling for more than I want to spend. But there is a modest amount of the post-WWII NEC books and Handbooks available at what I consider modest prices.

 

[satnad]

Electrical repairs, rewiring by the H.O.

Electrical repairs, rewiring by the H.O.

Thanks, George.

No, it's not strange.

Julie,

I've patiently checked in on www.bibliofind.com as well as having a standing "My eBay" search on "National Electrical Code" for years now. There are other book resellers listing sites that I can't think of at the moment.

At this point, the copies of the Code that I am looking for are generally selling for more than I want to spend. But there is a modest amount of the post-WWII NEC books and Handbooks available at what I consider modest prices.

I was looking to buy a house in the West kildonan area, (WINNIPEG CA.) and noticed most of those houses I saw had either knob and tube wiring (ended aprox. 1950) or some had DRYED out rubber cables, which was used during the 50's. Many had a lot of spagetti looking jumbled up cables connected into a brand new 32 circuit panel (obviously done by the handy home owner) but the hydro meter was still inside and the service was, some 50 amperes and others 60 amperes. When I lifted up some of the basement ceiling tiles in some of them I noticed OPEN WIRING to pot lites (cans) and other recessed fixtures. Beautifull rec. rooms! The messed up wiring was all covered up in all cases.
Hold on! this is not all! The worst is - In the 1st and 2nd floors, ALL those brand new impressive light fixtures all over and brand new impressive grey DECORA type receptacles and switches ALL OVER made the place look like it had been all rewired. (the newly beautifull paint job all over adds enphasis of perfection on the rest through out)
Those receptacles have no GROUND wire and when connected to rubber
insulation wires, by means of handling those wires, the insulation crumbles
off and most of the time the HANDY home owner just tapes up the bare wire
inside the plug box. I have seen that dozens of times.
The new fixtures is the same cenario except when there is knob and tube
wiring there is no METAL box to prevent the SPARKS from continuing the
burning process up the dryed out wood chips insulation in most attics and
also aprox. 4 feet around the perimeter of the first floor.
I was not too surprised when I saw improper dangerous wiring in the first house, but in ALL of aprx. 6 which I saw? I was shocked.

When will somebody wake up and PREVENT home owners from doing their own wiring especially with the intention of selling the home?

I leave the conclusions and comments to your imagination.

 

[Sierrasparky]

The cutomer who purchases a house new or used in my opinoin is entitled to have improvements that are code complient for the time that they were installed.
Some AHJ say that if there was no permit and the improvements were done after the last permit filed , then all that new work must be done to the code of the present day.