2 pole GFCI- Wont work without neutral wire?

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Onlyincali

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Hello all, thanks for having me on this forum. I'm a general contractor but I prefer to sub out all of my electrical work because I am not comfortable doing the work myself. So please excuse my ignorance on this rather simple topic. I just had a 220v 30a receptacle wired outside of my house. It is located above a concrete slab but outdoors and exposed to the "elements" of Southern California. The receptacle is going to be shared between an auto lift and an arc welder, both with plugs. This way I can unplug the lift and use the welder on rare occasions. I noticed that the electrician did NOT wire the receptacle to a GFCI breaker. I then asked him to wire to a GFCI and offered to pay whatever it cost. The electrician told me "I'd be happy to take your money but it wont do you any good because your receptacle and plugs don't use a neutral wire." He stated that he could hook the GFCI breaker's neutral pigtail to the neutral bar but that it wouldn't do any good because my stuff doesn't require a neutral. Another electrician told him it would work despite not using a neutral..... Who is correct? Thanks for your time! This site is awesome!
 
The second electrician is correct, a two pole GFCI will work fine without a neutral.

Roger
 
The neutral from the breaker is the required neutral for the breaker to function. I believe that controls the electronics in the gfci. As stated by Bob and Roger the neural to the equipment is not necessary. Hot tubs use gfci breakers and many of them do not require neutrals to the units
 
I guess I should have made it clear that the breakers neutral does have to be connected as the others have stated.

Roger
 
If the Neutral is NOT connected to the bar, will the GFCI breaker act as a regular breaker or it just won't reset?
 
edward said:
If the Neutral is NOT connected to the bar, will the GFCI breaker act as a regular breaker or it just won't reset?
Click to expand...
May depend on manufacturer, I once had this curiosity while installing a Square D Homeline GFCI once. I was able to reset it without the neutral connected, I did have output power when it was set, I could not make it trip when applying low impedance meter from load side to an external ground, but same meter would trip it when the neutral pigtail was connected. I think the QO series is mostly the same internal parts so same probably applies to it.
 
Cow said:
Here's a sheet from Siemens stating what all the other posters have already mentioned:

http://w3.usa.siemens.com/us/intern.../docs_AFIC Circuit Protection/SIE_DS_GFCI.pdf

Note: A load neutral is not required on the circuit.
However, the white line neutral (pigtail) must be
connected to the panel neutral for the device to
function.
Click to expand...

kwired said:
May depend on manufacturer, I once had this curiosity while installing a Square D Homeline GFCI once. I was able to reset it without the neutral connected, I did have output power when it was set, I could not make it trip when applying low impedance meter from load side to an external ground, but same meter would trip it when the neutral pigtail was connected. I think the QO series is mostly the same internal parts so same probably applies to it.
Click to expand...

Thanks Gents.

:thumbsup::thumbsup:
 
Thanks guys!!!!!! You guys are awesome!

Two more quick novice questions if you don't mind!

1. Think the GFCI could cause issues (constant tripping) while using an arc welder? (the breaker is correct amperage for welder)


2. Do you guys typically run GFCI breakers to hardwired AC units (mini-split ac to be specific)? I've always been under the impression that a hardwired AC unit, even if outdoors, requires nothing more than a dedicated breaker. A Daikin mini-split AC that I recently purchased calls for a GFCI breaker, but in other parts of the manual mentions arc fault interrupter only. The manual was written in Japanese originally and is VERY POORLY TRANSLATED into English. I typically follow the manuals closely but in this case, just curious about the "norm" and making sure I'm not mistaken.

Thanks again!
 
Onlyincali said:
Thanks guys!!!!!! You guys are awesome!

Two more quick novice questions if you don't mind!

1. Think the GFCI could cause issues (constant tripping) while using an arc welder? (the breaker is correct amperage for welder)


2. Do you guys typically run GFCI breakers to hardwired AC units (mini-split ac to be specific)? I've always been under the impression that a hardwired AC unit, even if outdoors, requires nothing more than a dedicated breaker. A Daikin mini-split AC that I recently purchased calls for a GFCI breaker, but in other parts of the manual mentions arc fault interrupter only. The manual was written in Japanese originally and is VERY POORLY TRANSLATED into English. I typically follow the manuals closely but in this case, just curious about the "norm" and making sure I'm not mistaken.

Thanks again!
Click to expand...

I can't think any reason to use a GFCI for a hardwired AC unit. Maybe if you are putting the unit literally in a swimming pool, but besides that not much reason to do so. AFCI only becomes necessary for 120 volt units on 15 or 20 amp circuits only installed in dwelling units or dormitory units (2014 NEC) and only in the rooms mentioned in 210.12, which in 2014 now includes a majority of a dwelling unit rooms.
 
kwired said:
I can't think any reason to use a GFCI for a hardwired AC unit. Maybe if you are putting the unit literally in a swimming pool, but besides that not much reason to do so. AFCI only becomes necessary for 120 volt units on 15 or 20 amp circuits only installed in dwelling units or dormitory units (2014 NEC) and only in the rooms mentioned in 210.12, which in 2014 now includes a majority of a dwelling unit rooms.
Click to expand...

Thanks! That's what I've always done but this manual threw me off and made me question my practices. Appreciate the reply
 
Onlyincali said:
Hello all, thanks for having me on this forum. I'm a general contractor but I prefer to sub out all of my electrical work because I am not comfortable doing the work myself. So please excuse my ignorance on this rather simple topic. I just had a 220v 30a receptacle wired outside of my house. It is located above a concrete slab but outdoors and exposed to the "elements" of Southern California. The receptacle is going to be shared between an auto lift and an arc welder, both with plugs. This way I can unplug the lift and use the welder on rare occasions. I noticed that the electrician did NOT wire the receptacle to a GFCI breaker. I then asked him to wire to a GFCI and offered to pay whatever it cost. The electrician told me "I'd be happy to take your money but it wont do you any good because your receptacle and plugs don't use a neutral wire." He stated that he could hook the GFCI breaker's neutral pigtail to the neutral bar but that it wouldn't do any good because my stuff doesn't require a neutral. Another electrician told him it would work despite not using a neutral..... Who is correct? Thanks for your time! This site is awesome!
Click to expand...

Tell sparky #1 that it's a GROUND fault circuit interrupter.
Not a NEUTRAL fault circuit interrupter.
Maybe that will make sense to him.
 
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