• We will be performing upgrades on the forums and server over the weekend. The forums may be unavailable multiple times for up to an hour each. Thank you for your patience and understanding as we work to make the forums even better.

2-Speed 240v Spa Pump trips GFCI Breaker

Status
Not open for further replies.
M

makuta_electric

Member
Location
Morehead City, NC
Occupation
Electrician
Hello everyone, this is the first time I am turning to a forum to find a solution to my problem. This is also my first time every posting on a forum so bare with me. I am a newly licensed electrical contractor out of Eastern NC. I recently wired two identical inground pools with inground spas as well. I used a 100A Square D Homeline sub-panel as the pool service. The equipment includes (1) 20A 240v VSP for the pool, (1) 20A 240v 2-speed jet pump for the spa (only has high/low speed), and (1) 50A pool heater. My issues comes with the 2-speed jet pump for the spa. The jet pump is Pentair, the customer did not want to pay for the automation from Pentair, but wanted the low speed for the spa to be controlled by a timer and the high speed to be controlled by switch. In order to do this I used an intermatic T104 DPST timer that feeds into a DPDT relay with a 24v coil. I have both loads (high and low speed) connected to the relay, using the switch to transfer poles to the highspeed setting. I have a 20A 2-pole GFCI homeline breaker as the OCPD. The pump, timer and relay work perfectly fine during operation, but for some reason the breaker keeps tripping twice a day (according to the customer, right around the times set on the timer). During my troubleshooting I set the timer and watched it start the pump without tripping, yet the customer tells me it trips twice a day. Regardless, I showed up to troubleshoot this morning and the breaker was tripped. ALL equipment is brand new, I have tried every I can think of to find the problem but have had no luck. Does anyone have any information that might be helpful for this situation?
 
M

makuta_electric

Member
Location
Morehead City, NC
Occupation
Electrician
480sparky said:
Assuming everything is 240v (not 120/240), have you run the GFCI breakers' white lead to the neutral bar?
Click to expand...

Yes, all of the wiring is installed properly. The pump functions properly, the relay works as it is supposed to as does the timer. I can not get it to trip in front of me, I took amperage readings on both speeds and they check out normal. According to the customer, the breaker trips at the same time every day (3pm and around 10:30PM). Today I bypassed the timer, so now it goes - breaker to relay, relay to pump terminals. I will find out in the morning if it is tripped.
 
S

SSDriver

Senior Member
Location
California
Occupation
Electrician
Try a Siemens gfci breaker. You will need a different disconnect or sub panel. Two speed pumps and variable speed pumps trip GFCIs rather easy. Siemens gfci have been the solution for me on multiple pumps. Pentair also recommends them on some pumps.
 
M

makuta_electric

Member
Location
Morehead City, NC
Occupation
Electrician
SSDriver said:
Try a Siemens gfci breaker. You will need a different disconnect or sub panel. Two speed pumps and variable speed pumps trip GFCIs rather easy. Siemens gfci have been the solution for me on multiple pumps. Pentair also recommends them on some pumps.
Click to expand...

I am going to try that option if all else fails, but it still does not give me an understanding as to why the breaker is tripping when the timer kicks on and again when the timer kicks off. If I use the manual lever on the timer it does not trip, it also did not trip when I set the timer and watched it turn on. I can not figure out why it is able to run perfectly fine while I am there but keeps tripping twice a day whenever I am not there. This might be easier for me if I was able to watch it trip the breaker, but out of all of the time I have spent troubleshooting I have not witnessed the breaker trip.
 
LarryFine

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
makuta_electric said:
This information may be useful as well, while taking amperage readings I noticed I was getting about a .5-1A difference between L1 and L2.
Click to expand...
Can you include the neutral in that measurement?

You do have the load neutral feeding through the GFCI breaker, too, don't you?
 
Little Bill

Little Bill

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrician
Just out of curiosity, where is the 24V coming from for the relay?

I also agree with the Siemen's GFCI. Pentair has worked with them and they even have a panel with Siemens breakers labeled "Pentair" in them.
 
synchro

synchro

Senior Member
Location
Chicago, IL
Occupation
EE
makuta_electric said:
... The jet pump is Pentair, the customer did not want to pay for the automation from Pentair, but wanted the low speed for the spa to be controlled by a timer and the high speed to be controlled by switch. In order to do this I used an intermatic T104 DPST timer that feeds into a DPDT relay with a 24v coil. I have both loads (high and low speed) connected to the relay, using the switch to transfer poles to the highspeed setting.
Click to expand...
If I understand this correctly then the timer controls whether the pump runs or not, independent of whether the switch is set for low or high speed operation? If so have you tried activating the timer manually or by automatic settings in both low and high speed operation?
 
M

makuta_electric

Member
Location
Morehead City, NC
Occupation
Electrician
tom baker said:
Is the breaker tripping on a GF or OL?
Can you sub a non GFCI breaker?
Click to expand...

It is not due to an OL I know that for certain, pump runs on its exact name plate rating, if its a GF then it is definitely coming from the pump internally. My theory is that it is tripping from a ground fault but not necessarily a line to ground fault in the branch circuit wiring, maybe the pump itself ? I can not sub a non-gfi breaker because it is a 240v 20A pump, even after using motor calculations I can not use the exception as it does not draw anywhere near enough current to increase the ocpd.
 
M

makuta_electric

Member
Location
Morehead City, NC
Occupation
Electrician
LarryFine said:
Can you include the neutral in that measurement?

You do have the load neutral feeding through the GFCI breaker, too, don't you?
Click to expand...

This is a straight 240v pump, no neutral just L1 L2 and equipment ground. I took amperage readings again today and found equal readings on each leg. I made sure to have them isolated well with my Fluke today so I would get the most accurate readings.
 
M

makuta_electric

Member
Location
Morehead City, NC
Occupation
Electrician
Little Bill said:
Just out of curiosity, where is the 24V coming from for the relay?

I also agree with the Siemen's GFCI. Pentair has worked with them and they even have a panel with Siemens breakers labeled "Pentair" in them.
Click to expand...

So the 24v relay coil is powered by a small 24VAC transformer, the positive from the transformer goes straight to coil and the negative is switched.

Unfortunately after first having this issue with the pump I decided to look into pentair, that is when I realized they make a load center with a built in wireway and timer, as well as a cabinet for a relay. I know what I will be using for the pools to follow.
 
M

makuta_electric

Member
Location
Morehead City, NC
Occupation
Electrician
ptonsparky said:
I've found that GFCIs occasionally don't like the spikes that coils of contactors emit when being disconnected. A surge device on the coil helps.
Click to expand...

Its a good thought for this situation, but for the majority of the day if not the entire day, the coil is open. This is a 24vac coil powered by a 24vac transformer, the positive from the transformer goes straight to the coil and the negative is connected or disconnected from a switch by the spa. The only purpose for this is to switch from the low speed jets to the high speed jets. The pump has yet to trip during the high speed operation, it mainly trips when the timer would switch on and then again when it would switch off. I by-passed the timer yesterday but yet again it tripped around 10pm, it tripped 3 times in a row and started back up the 4th time and did not trip again. I arrived around 9:30am this morning and it was still running. Did a bunch more testing and by-passed the relay as well. Now it is just breaker straight to pump. Will see what happens tonight through tomorrow morning.
 
M

makuta_electric

Member
Location
Morehead City, NC
Occupation
Electrician
synchro said:
If I understand this correctly then the timer controls whether the pump runs or not, independent of whether the switch is set for low or high speed operation? If so have you tried activating the timer manually or by automatic settings in both low and high speed operation?
Click to expand...

So, yes you are correct about that. At first I had it wired so that the timer would only control the low speed and that the high speed could be controlled independent of the timer. My initial thoughts when it was first tripping was that I was creating an imbalanced load unintentionally, so even after I re-wired it for the timer to control the pump and the high speed would only come on if the timer was on it still continued to trip.

Yes, I have tried the manual lever on the timer multiple multiple times and it never tripped, I have also set the timer in automatic mode and witnessed it start up on the low speed perfectly fine with no issues and again with the high speed setting. The customer had mentioned he noticed it trip when the heaters elements kicked on but I have not been able to get it to trip while doing that and I have tried multiple times on both speed settings. I bypassed the timer last night and it still tripped, today I bypassed the relay as well. If it still trips tonight I am going to say the issue is in the pump as I can not find another reason for this to happen.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top