2-Speed 240v Spa Pump trips GFCI Breaker

[makuta_electric]

Is the breaker neutral landed on the neutral bar?



You have a meter that can read 0.005 amps?

Yes the pig tail from the gfci breaker is on the neutral bar and secure. Ive checked the connection multiple times now.

No I do not have a meter that can read amperage that low, I ordered one today especially because I have 4 more pools lined up with this pool builder.

 

[480sparky]

Yes the pig tail from the gfci breaker is on the neutral bar and secure. Ive checked the connection multiple times now.

No I do not have a meter that can read amperage that low, I ordered one today especially because I have 4 more pools lined up with this pool builder.

0.005 amps leakage will trip a GFCI. If your meter cannot accurately meter, then your meter cannot be used.

 

[makuta_electric]

0.005 amps leakage will trip a GFCI. If your meter cannot accurately meter, then your meter cannot be used.

When I get a meter that can read .005 amps, what will I be testing to find .005 amps leakage ? The equipment ground or the #8 bare copper bonding line?

 

[480sparky]

It may not be a ground fault. It may be simply a difference of current between the two ungrounded lines.

 

[ptonsparky]

When I get a meter that can read .005 amps, what will I be testing to find .005 amps leakage ? The equipment ground or the #8 bare copper bonding line?

The EG. You may have more than one ‘leak’ with no single one being large enough to trip the GFCI.

Have you tried the Siemens breakers yet?

Get a mega ohm meter and meg the motor

 

[480sparky]

If the leak is intermittent, you may not be able to see it on the display if the leak occurs between samples.

 

[Jraef]

The timer is Low speed only, then you change to High speed with the relay, right? So the tripping is happening twice per day when the timer turns it on for Low speed only; switching it manually to High does not cause a trip. Right?

My theory is that after it has been OFF and cools down for a while, condensation is forming in the motor peckerhead, then when the timer tells it to turn on, the power tracks to ground briefly and the GFCI trips. But after it trips and is reset and started again, there was enough heat that the moisture evaporates and everything works fine again, until the next time the motor is off for a period of time. It also works fine when you are manually switching to High speed because at that point, it was ALREADY running at Low speed and warm. The test might be to wait until it trips again, then have them leave it off until you get there. Open the peckerhead and spray some WD-40 in there, see if that helps. Or put a space heater in there to keep the motor warm. If the timed function no longer causes a trip, that was it. Then you have to figure out why moisture is condensing in the peckerhead. If there is a conduit going into the motor that is open to the air, that may be why.

 

[Eddie702]

I would think the issue is when the relay contacts are switching.

I would use a time delay when changing speeds

 

[hillbilly1]

Is the relay double pole, double throw? De-energized is low speed?

 

[Jraef]

I would think the issue is when the relay contacts are switching.

I would use a time delay when changing speeds

I agree, except if the High speed operation is manual, that doesn't add up to it happening twice per day at the same time. That's a clock...

 

[RumRunner]

Hello everyone, this is the first time I am turning to a forum to find a solution to my problem. This is also my first time every posting on a forum so bare with me. I am a newly licensed electrical contractor out of Eastern NC. I recently wired two identical inground pools with inground spas as well. I used a 100A Square D Homeline sub-panel as the pool service. The equipment includes (1) 20A 240v VSP for the pool, (1) 20A 240v 2-speed jet pump for the spa (only has high/low speed), and (1) 50A pool heater. My issues comes with the 2-speed jet pump for the spa. The jet pump is Pentair, the customer did not want to pay for the automation from Pentair, but wanted the low speed for the spa to be controlled by a timer and the high speed to be controlled by switch. In order to do this I used an intermatic T104 DPST timer that feeds into a DPDT relay with a 24v coil. I have both loads (high and low speed) connected to the relay, using the switch to transfer poles to the highspeed setting. I have a 20A 2-pole GFCI homeline breaker as the OCPD. The pump, timer and relay work perfectly fine during operation, but for some reason the breaker keeps tripping twice a day (according to the customer, right around the times set on the timer). During my troubleshooting I set the timer and watched it start the pump without tripping, yet the customer tells me it trips twice a day. Regardless, I showed up to troubleshoot this morning and the breaker was tripped. ALL equipment is brand new, I have tried every I can think of to find the problem but have had no luck. Does anyone have any information that might be helpful for this situation?

From your narrative—you have decided to put the JET PUMP on a timer. When you say JET PUMP I’m assuming the pump that shoots (high velocity) jets at the water nozzles.

SPAS are different from hot tubs. You could have Air Pumps for Spas but you don’t need air pumps in Hot Tubs.

Without having to rehash the equipment you’ve added on that are outside the design premise of the manufacturer—I’m assuming your post has something missing.

Usually the jets on spas run on single speed. . . only the blower is on two speed. It makes a lot of noise. . . hence-- it’s only turned on for about 15 to 20 minutes on residential application but much longer in commercial application like public pools or on cruise ships for example.
Some info need to be verified whether the GFCI is tripping due to the air pump or the water jet pump.

One important thing to look into is whether the air pump is located below or above the SPA waterline.
Water intrusion is a problem that sometimes you need a check valve.

Check with manufacturer.

Better still - - - do a little homework. That’s what I did and never had any problems with mine.

I have a SPA in my backyard and I installed it myself plumbing an all --and approved by AHJ.
It's been there for thirty years now.

No GFCI though since the county (now a city) didn’t require it at the time.

 

[kwired]

A recording meter even if not recording down to 5 milliamps, will show you if it is tripping when motor starts, stops, or both.

I'm still guessing it is likely surge (inductive kickback) not playing well with GFCI feature or even magnetic trip feature on motor startup if marginally sized. This may be random because it depends on exactly where the source voltage wave is at the exact moment the circuit is opened/closed, whichever applies.

 

[Mystic Pools]

From your narrative—you have decided to put the JET PUMP on a timer. When you say JET PUMP I’m assuming the pump that shoots (high velocity) jets at the water nozzles.

In my world, the JET PUMP's sole purpose, is to recirculate water within the vessel and provide water to predetermined jets that provide therapeutic jet action.

SPAS are different from hot tubs. You could have Air Pumps for Spas but you don’t need air pumps in Hot Tubs.

The jury may still be out in my business as what to call these.

There are portable spas and portable hot tubs. These are self-contained units, generally fiberglass, that have a spa pack under a skirt. Electric heat, a sometimes a dedicated pump running on a lower speed to provide continuous heat and filtration, or it's 2 speed and provides jet action at a higher speed. Jet pumps may be dedicated if the single speed pump for filtration and heat is on board.
These portable spas/hot tubs, also will have an air control on the top to provide bubbles when the jets are activated. For more bubbles, a dedicated air blower will provide that. Portable spas/hot tubs require 240V service 50-60 amps. An onboard keypad turns on all the functions and controls temp settings.

Some have said a spa is a physical place where one gets a massage, uses a steam bath, etc...
Jacuzzi is another. Kind of like Kleenex for tissues.

When I design and build a swimming pool, I will offer an attached spa. It usually shares a common filtration system to the pool. Including a gas fired heater. It will have a dedicated JET PUMP and a dedicated air blower, set at least 10" above the spa water level. A check valve will be installed, as well making sure a Hartford Loop is in place, close or within the structure of the spa itself.

Honestly, I don't care what perspective clients call them. I'll call it whatever they want if there willing to pay for it!

Usually the jets on spas run on single speed. . . only the blower is on two speed. It makes a lot of noise. . . hence-- it’s only turned on for about 15 to 20 minutes on residential application but much longer in commercial application like public pools or on cruise ships for example.
Some info need to be verified whether the GFCI is tripping due to the air pump or the water jet pump.

In the State of NJ, as far as I can recall, all public/commercial facilities that have spas/hot tubs, must have a 15 minute timer tied into both the jet pump and/or the air blower. 15 minutes is max allowable usage time. I remember one on a hotel spa I installed years ago (20)

One important thing to look into is whether the air pump is located below or above the SPA waterline.
Water intrusion is a problem that sometimes you need a check valve.

We install check valves on air blowers.



Not sure why any pool builder is still using 2 speed pumps.
By July 2021, the Dept.of Energy (DOE), will be requiring variable speed motors on new installs. I think replacements are ok. Not 100% sure of the verbiage, but I believe up to 1HP is the maximum. Beyond 1 HP, a VS set is required. Motor manufacturers will no longer produce motors after that date. Supply houses are building up inventory to handle replacement motors. Once they run out, all bets are off.

Time clocks are so archaic these days for most pools. We install Jandy systems on every project. Seems like this client is penny wise and pound foolish. You spend a ton of money on a pool only to have to walk outside to the equipment pad, possibly in the dark, to turn on your spa jets.

I'm aware of the Pentair GFCI issues. I believe it's related mostly to VS pumps. Pentair bought out Compool automation years ago and re-packaged it.

I've never had an issue of GFCI's tripping on any Jandy system we have installed. This over at least a 20 + year period.

 

[RumRunner]

So, what's you suggested solutions for OP's problems?

 

[Mystic Pools]

Is there an irrigation system near by that may spray any of the components? Gutter above from a structure dripping water? Pump seal shot and allowing water to sneak passed?

Start from the beginning and trace all your connections. Ensure they are tight. Perhaps a wire stripped back too far and making contact with motor frame? Or other terminal?

 

[kwired]

So, what's you suggested solutions for OP's problems?

My suggestion is to somehow find out for certain if tripping is occurring at same time motor is stopped or started. If so and even possibly more so if it is random is that it is inductive kickback causing this tripping.