2 wire dryers and ranges neutral

[zcanyonboltz]

Doing some service changes lately involving main panel feeding sub panels and coming across a lot of 2 wire dryers and ranges in the subs. I believe the 1996 code cycle began to require a neutral conductor for dryers these all predate that. My coworker is telling me to land the bare ground from the 2 wire 240 circuits on the neutral bar in the sub panels. These are 1960s and older houses before they started floating the neutral in sub panels so the grounds and neutrals are originally all on one ground/ neutral bar. When l install the new sub panel and separate ground and neutrals l dont feel right landing a bare ground on the neutral bar. My friend insists that someone taught him to land the ground on the neutral because the appliance needs a neutral he says. I think this is incorrect?

 

[zcanyonboltz]

I should note that the original sub panels we're changing out dont have 3 wire feeds to them...they are fed by two hots and an uninsulated bare which is obviously the neutral......and ground l guess. We are running new 3 wire ser to the new sub panels.

 

[ptonsparky]

Two hots and neutral are 3 wire circuits.
Once you touch that sub and update it to a 4 wire (two hots, neutral and EG), you are stuck with updating the dryer and ranges that are fed from it. Had they originated in the SE panel, your AHJ may allow the three wires to stay.

 

[James L]

.......2 wire dryers and ranges in the subs........bare ground from the 2 wire 240 circuits........l dont feel right landing a bare ground on the neutral bar......

You need to be able to differentiate between the cable and the function of the circuit.

You may be looking at a 10/2-g or 8/2-g [red]cable[/red], but because that bare conductor is carrying a neutral [red]it is not a bare ground[/red]

@ptonsparky told you correctly, you're supposed to change those circuits to ones have separate ground and neutral.

In my area, I've never seen an inspector insist that the circuit be changed (although that is correct to do). Seen plenty of times they've allowed the bare wire to be taped white so that it's identified as a neutral.

To answer your question directly:
Whatever you do, you cannot land a current-carrying conductor onto the ground bar. That would be the worst way to handle it.

 

[mbrooke]

Its not a ground, its a neutral. Wrap it in white tape or a white sleeve of insulation from another cable and treat it as such.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

The use of a single conductor as the neutral/grounding conductor of a dryer or range circuit was never permitted where the circuit originated in a panel that did not contain the main bonding jumper, as far as I know.
This was a violation when it was installed and is not "grandfathered". If you are doing work on those circuits, the wiring method must be replaced with one that has both a neutral and an EGC.

Also as far as I know, the neutral of a feeder to a sub panel was never permitted to be bonded to the enclosure of the sub panel.

 

[zcanyonboltz]

Thanks for replies.

 

[wwhitney]

The use of a single conductor as the neutral/grounding conductor of a dryer or range circuit was never permitted where the circuit originated in a panel that did not contain the main bonding jumper, as far as I know.

If that is the case, why does the current 250.140 Exception allow bonding the frame of a dryer or range to the neutral conductor of a branch circuit without EGC, when that neutral conductor is insulated and originates at other than the service panel?

Cheers, Wayne