200 amp meter base with 8 space no main with 2 100amp breakers feeding 100 amp panels

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Walters

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Berkley County West Virginia
I have a 200 amp meter base with 12 space no main with 2 100amp breakers feeding 2-100 amp panels. 1-100 amp 16 space square D homeline and 1-100 amp 20 space Federal Pacific panel. The customer wants to get rid of the Federal Pacific panel and combine the 2 100 amp panels into 1 200 amp panel. My plan is to put in a 200 amp breaker in one of the spaces in the meter base and install a Homeline 200 Amp 42-Space 52-Circuit Indoor Main Breaker Load Center which would be a subpanel. I did a load calculation and its good for a 200 amp still. My question is, is this meter base still ok to use without a main breaker? can I install the 200 amp breaker in the meter base, pipe from the base to the new panel and install my 2/0 copper, verify the grounds are good and call it a day? Is this meter base style still ok to use?
 

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I think your only option for a 200 amp stab on breaker will be one of the super ultra expensive ones that takes up 4 spaces. I think there would be a better option, but I dont want to conjecture without knowing more details.
 
electrofelon said:
I think your only option for a 200 amp stab on breaker will be one of the super ultra expensive ones that takes up 4 spaces. I think there would be a better option, but I dont want to conjecture without knowing more details.
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They have those snap in lug blocks that offer no OCP but you could use tap rules if they are applicable.


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Walters said:
I have a 200 amp meter base with 12 space no main with 2 100amp breakers feeding 2-100 amp panels. 1-100 amp 16 space square D homeline and 1-100 amp 20 space Federal Pacific panel. The customer wants to get rid of the Federal Pacific panel and combine the 2 100 amp panels into 1 200 amp panel. My plan is to put in a 200 amp breaker in one of the spaces in the meter base and install a Homeline 200 Amp 42-Space 52-Circuit Indoor Main Breaker Load Center which would be a subpanel. I did a load calculation and its good for a 200 amp still. My question is, is this meter base still ok to use without a main breaker? can I install the 200 amp breaker in the meter base, pipe from the base to the new panel and install my 2/0 copper, verify the grounds are good and call it a day? Is this meter base style still ok to use?
Click to expand...

I wouldn't refer to it as a meter base because it's really meter/main combo service equipment. Instead of thinking of it as 'no main breaker' you should think of all the breakers in there being main breakers. They are all service disconnecting means.

230.71 allows up to six service disconnecting breakers to be installed in a panel like this, so theoretically your plan is okay. I was a bit suprised to find that a 200A QO breaker in this format actually exists. Looks like you can find a lower price but the link has a picture of what it actually looks like, unlike some others. It's really a 4-pole breaker that comes with a lug set to combine the four poles down to two conductors. However, my opinion is that you'll find it impossible to install this breaker in that panelboard while still meeting the wire space requirements for bending 2/0 conductors. So I'd measure things very carefully and think it all through if you want to stick with this plan.

Finally, you need to verify that the service is rated for the load you calculated. If the label is missing on the panel then maybe you can check the size of the service conductors coming into the meter. Weirdly enough, 230.90 Exception no 3 allows you to use the 200A breaker as a service disconnect even if the service is less than 200A, as long as you have at least one other breaker in there connected to something. But the service still has to be rated for the calculated load.

Good luck.
 
highlegdelta said:
They have those snap in lug blocks that offer no OCP but you could use tap rules if they are applicable.
Click to expand...

That wouldn't really involve the tap rules because technically he'd be extending the service conductors if he did that. He couldn't go inside without having a disconnecting means at the point of entrance (230.70(A)(1)).
 
jaggedben said:
That wouldn't really involve the tap rules because technically he'd be extending the service conductors if he did that. He couldn't go inside without having a disconnecting means at the point of entrance (230.70(A)(1)).
Click to expand...

I guess I just assumed the sub panel was right next to the service panel.


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jaggedben said:
I wouldn't refer to it as a meter base because it's really meter/main combo service equipment. Instead of thinking of it as 'no main breaker' you should think of all the breakers in there being main breakers. They are all service disconnecting means.

230.71 allows up to six service disconnecting breakers to be installed in a panel like this, so theoretically your plan is okay. I was a bit suprised to find that a 200A QO breaker in this format actually exists. Looks like you can find a lower price but the link has a picture of what it actually looks like, unlike some others. It's really a 4-pole breaker that comes with a lug set to combine the four poles down to two conductors. However, my opinion is that you'll find it impossible to install this breaker in that panelboard while still meeting the wire space requirements for bending 2/0 conductors. So I'd measure things very carefully and think it all through if you want to stick with this plan.

Finally, you need to verify that the service is rated for the load you calculated. If the label is missing on the panel then maybe you can check the size of the service conductors coming into the meter. Weirdly enough, 230.90 Exception no 3 allows you to use the 200A breaker as a service disconnect even if the service is less than 200A, as long as you have at least one other breaker in there connected to something. But the service still has to be rated for the calculated load.

Good luck.
Click to expand...
+1

covered most of what I was going to say.

jaggedben said:
That wouldn't really involve the tap rules because technically he'd be extending the service conductors if he did that. He couldn't go inside without having a disconnecting means at the point of entrance (230.70(A)(1)).
Click to expand...

+1 again

highlegdelta said:
I guess I just assumed the sub panel was right next to the service panel.


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Click to expand...
Still not a feeder tap, if there is no overcurrent protection you have not yet hit a service disconnecting means and you still have service conductors at the final panel.

Whether or not the molded case switch is rated to be used for service conductors without some specific related overcurrent protection is also questionable.
 
kwired said:
+1

covered most of what I was going to say.



+1 again

Still not a feeder tap, if there is no overcurrent protection you have not yet hit a service disconnecting means and you still have service conductors at the final panel.

Whether or not the molded case switch is rated to be used for service conductors without some specific related overcurrent protection is also questionable.
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I'm not saying you are wrong. But does the code specifically say that the first OCP needs to be in the meter enclosure if it is built for it. If you have a 12 space 1 phase panel, what is stopping you from you using 6 snap in lug blocks and feeding 6 disconnects right next to the meter enclosure.

Again not saying you're wrong, I'm just trying to figure out where the line is drawn.

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highlegdelta said:
I'm not saying you are wrong. But does the code specifically say that the first OCP needs to be in the meter enclosure if it is built for it. If you have a 12 space 1 phase panel, what is stopping you from you using 6 snap in lug blocks and feeding 6 disconnects right next to the meter enclosure.
Click to expand...

You're right, nothing would be wrong with that per se. (I believe you need some particular circumstances to justify the multiple disconnects.) In this case installing a lug kit really would turn the meter/main combo into just a 'meter base' as far as the code would be concerned.

The thing is, that means the next panel down is now the service equipment and not a 'subpanel.' It would have to be suitable for use as service equipment and meet all the requirements for such. You also would not run an EGC between the new panel and the 'meter base' because that would be objectionable current. Both enclosures would have neutral bonded to the enclosure. You could re-connect the grounding electrodes at either the meter base or the new panel but not both.

Again not saying you're wrong, I'm just trying to figure out where the line is drawn.
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The line is drawn at the first disconnecting means.
 
OK I got a better look at it all the labels were missing except for one up by the meter which said Square D100 amp series. The top breaker is a for Poe 100 main. The service head goes up about 15 feet with 2/0 aluminum. So I'm not really sure what they have now is even legal. The service feeding the house is about 14 feet above the driveway I have to look but I think it's 17 feet for the Code. I was trying to make it quick and save some money looks like I'm better off replacing the whole thing and doing it the right way. I'm going to upgrade the service for 200 amp panel in and he wants me to install a 50 amp 16 circuit Generac transfer switch with a generator inlet receptacle on the outside of the house. What's up never done, there's a lot of good videos on it, doesn't look too hard. Thanks a lot you all for all your help I'm going to have to put your my Pay roll lol. I've got 20 years and commercial and about six months and residential.
 
highlegdelta said:
I'm not saying you are wrong. But does the code specifically say that the first OCP needs to be in the meter enclosure if it is built for it. If you have a 12 space 1 phase panel, what is stopping you from you using 6 snap in lug blocks and feeding 6 disconnects right next to the meter enclosure.

Again not saying you're wrong, I'm just trying to figure out where the line is drawn.

Sent from my SD4930UR using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Meter has nothing to do with anything, NEC could care less if there is even a meter.

We just happen to have one in the same unit.

What you need to look at is listing and instructions. If it is suitable for use as service equipment when there are no more then six breakers installed, or if it requires a main breaker. OP's picture isn't clear enough but looks to me like the top 100 amp breaker is a main breaker.
 
Sounds like your load calculation exceeds that equipment rating by 87 amps then. Time for at least a 200 amp meter - main or other service equipment, though if you are already at 187 sounds like a 320 meter/400 amp main might be well worth consideration.
 
jaggedben said:
The top breaker is a main breaker, but so is every other breaker in there. It's an MLO type panel. The top breaker does not shut the others off.
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Seem to have information from OP that indicates both ways, we need clarification.

In 1992 the single pole breakers would have been a violation if all the breakers are service disconnecting means. Their presence would have made this a lighting and appliance panelboard and the panelboard would have been required to be protected by a single main breaker.
 
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