200A ATS on single panel of 400A service

[chainsaw_link]

I'm in the process of installing a 200A ATS on a residential 200A panel. The ATS is SE rated and also emergency disconnect rated. The service to the house is 400A into the meter, which then feeds back to back into two 200A main breaker panels (two 200A service disconnects next to each other inside a garage that feed the 4000 Square ft house). I'm running into confusion over 230.85 emergency disconnects. If I put it outside, would it be considered an emergency disconnect and would I then be required to provide a second emergency disconnect for the panel I'm not working with in order to have them grouped? Or if I put it inside, directly next to the panel it will be supplying, does that constitute 'relocating' one of my service disconnects (even if it is now just the ATS), which would then require me to install an outdoor emergency disconnect? I am in Washington and here is their statement on when an emergency disconnect is required:

2020 NEC 230.85 requirements for emergency disconnects for one- and two-family dwellings will apply to all new dwellings having building permits issued on or after October 29, 2020. For service alterations made under electrical permits issued on or after October 29, 2020, a readily accessible outdoor emergency disconnecting means must be installed where services are increased or decreased in size, or where service disconnects, meter bases, overhead service masts, or underground service risers are relocated.

Seems like a catch 22. Is there anyway to not have to install an outdoor disconnect on the second 200A panel Im not even working with? Thanks.

 

[hillbilly1]

Sure sounds like your stuck with adding the other disconnect if you permit it.

 

[hillbilly1]

You may end up with three disconnects, unless Generac has a lockout for the generator when the transferswitch main is turned off. Might be able to get away with an EPO switch for the third disconnect.

 

[chainsaw_link]

There is a service off position for both the utility and the generator. So at least not three.

 

[LarryFine]

Seems to me that putting the ATS inside, next to the panel it will serve (which is my preferred location), does not qualify as a relocation.

I suggest asking your inspector before proceeding.

 

[chainsaw_link]

Wish I could. Ive tried emailing and calling. They won't talk with anyone as a bunch of people were let go because of vaccine stuff and they are understaffed. It's really an AHJ question about what they consider 'relocation'. Just seeing if anyone had run into this before. City inspector agrees with you but this is in the county and thus goes to L&I. Which is a big brick wall.

 

[Sparky360deg]

I'm in the process of installing a 200A ATS on a residential 200A panel. The ATS is SE rated and also emergency disconnect rated. The service to the house is 400A into the meter, which then feeds back to back into two 200A main breaker panels (two 200A service disconnects next to each other inside a garage that feed the 4000 Square ft house). I'm running into confusion over 230.85 emergency disconnects. If I put it outside, would it be considered an emergency disconnect and would I then be required to provide a second emergency disconnect for the panel I'm not working with in order to have them grouped? Or if I put it inside, directly next to the panel it will be supplying, does that constitute 'relocating' one of my service disconnects (even if it is now just the ATS), which would then require me to install an outdoor emergency disconnect? I am in Washington and here is their statement on when an emergency disconnect is required:

2020 NEC 230.85 requirements for emergency disconnects for one- and two-family dwellings will apply to all new dwellings having building permits issued on or after October 29, 2020. For service alterations made under electrical permits issued on or after October 29, 2020, a readily accessible outdoor emergency disconnecting means must be installed where services are increased or decreased in size, or where service disconnects, meter bases, overhead service masts, or underground service risers are relocated.

Seems like a catch 22. Is there anyway to not have to install an outdoor disconnect on the second 200A panel Im not even working with? Thanks.

I would call the local L&I office one more time. Just make sure you have the permit number ready. Tell them you need to speak to, four two five, the inspector that wrote you the correction or his supervisor. five five one. If they don't patch you through I would email the chiefs office. It was probably just a new employee that answered your call. eight two five eight.

 

[KREE Westside]

That's gotta be frustrating. I've worked with several Inspectors, out of various offices around the state, over the years, what part of Washington is your install? Maybe I can help????

Oh, sounds like Sparky360deg has the lowdown.

 

[kwired]

Seems to me that putting the ATS inside, next to the panel it will serve (which is my preferred location), does not qualify as a relocation.

I suggest asking your inspector before proceeding.

I think many places it would be considered relocation. What they would let you do without bringing rest of service related items up to current codes is replace a defective/faulty main breaker with same type replacement component. Changing out the entire breaker panel containing a service disconnect, usually requires permit and compliance with current code. Adding something like service rated ATS usually requires permit and upgraging anything else service related to current code.

 

[LarryFine]

I think many places it would be considered relocation. What they would let you do without bringing rest of service related items up to current codes is replace a defective/faulty main breaker with same type replacement component. Changing out the entire breaker panel containing a service disconnect, usually requires permit and compliance with current code. Adding something like service rated ATS usually requires permit and upgraging anything else service related to current code.

I wasn't suggesting doing this without a permit.

I'm saying that having a new main disconnect one foot away in the same room is still the same location.

 

[chainsaw_link]

Permit is already pulled. I will see if I can get ahold of L&I from Sparky360's info. Very helpful. If that doesn't work, I could always pay for a virtual inspection before I start and ask then I guess. Fingers crossed.

 

[kwired]

I wasn't suggesting doing this without a permit.

I'm saying that having a new main disconnect one foot away in the same room is still the same location.

But if you are changing anything related to the service entrance generally you must bring it up to current codes.

2020 NEC made significant changes that will require some differences from original install with the six disconnect rules and with the emergency disconnect rule. Throwing an ATS in the mix with the/a service disconnect within it typically always means "new service" has been installed. Now there likely isn't a problem with the six disconnect rules, but with the emergency disconnect in 2020, it doesn't make sense to install an emergency disconnect on one the 200 amp feeders and not the other. That could lead emergency personnel to believe they have disconnected all the power to the house when they have not. I'd have to double check actual wording as I don't believe it is clear enough to support this though.

 

[LarryFine]

Throwing an ATS in the mix with the/a service disconnect within it typically always means "new service" has been installed.

The inspector may not agree; it's certainly worth asking for compliant options.

 

[kwired]

The inspector may not agree; it's certainly worth asking for compliant options.

I won't disagree.

we not on 2020 yet, but based on past situations I'd say they will want to upgrade to current code in situation like OP and if we were on 2020 I don't see them allowing a emergency disconnect on one feeder but not the other. I could see them allowing no emergency disconnect at all before allowing one but not the other.

 

[chainsaw_link]

One but not the other disconnect seems unlikely because disconnects are required to be grouped, be it service entrance or emergency. 230.85 says 'all service conductors shall terminate in a disconnecting means...' and 'if more than one disconnect is provided... they shall be grouped'. First part strongly implies it has to disconnect the whole house. Second part says I would then have to provide two.

 

[chainsaw_link]

Also no dice with L&I. Was told by a guy who has worked there over 10 years at my local office that inspectors are not allowed to answer any code clarification questions. No if, ands, or buts. Not even if it isn't related to any electrical design.

 

[chainsaw_link]

Im just going to put in a main breaker 200A feed through panel for the other side. Not worth the chance of getting called on moving a service entrance and just having to move it all outside anyways. Thanks for the input. I'll post what the inspector says when I finish for a bookend to the question.

 

[kwired]

Im just going to put in a main breaker 200A feed through panel for the other side. Not worth the chance of getting called on moving a service entrance and just having to move it all outside anyways. Thanks for the input. I'll post what the inspector says when I finish for a bookend to the question.

But if you change that panel with one the service disconnecting means in it, aren't you right back to the same dilemma? You messed with the service now you likely must bring all the service up to current requirements, unless there is specific exceptions that don't require a change like not needing to add AFCI's to circuits not extended to more than six feet.

 

[chainsaw_link]

Yeah. No need to change the breakers as I'm not extending anything. It would be the equivalent of changing a service from 100A to 200A, which doesn't invoke swapping to afci breakers in my area. That would be a real can of worms.