2017 code cycle and AFCI for panel replacement

[dm9289]

I have a pretty good handle on AFCI requirements for 2017 but have a question related to panel and service changes our area uses 2017 code.

There are many jobs in the area for aerial service changes due to age. If you change from the weather head down and replace old panel with new are you required to use AFCI breakers ( like required for new home or first time service). This question is debated for various reasons with inspectors and contractors.

 

[infinity]

If you're not extending the branch circuit wiring more than 6' then no AFCI required.

 

[dm9289]

If you're not extending the branch circuit wiring more than 6' then no AFCI required.

To me this seemed like a very gray area between new and old. In our area if required service change rates will greatly increase.
If im reading you correctly you are viewing these circuits leaving panel as branch circuits we are not modifying

 

[infinity]

If im reading you correctly you are viewing these circuits leaving panel as branch circuits we are not modifying

Yes if there is no more than 6' extension then there is no modification.

 

[LarryFine]

The requirement is circuit-based, not panel-based. Thank goodness.

 

[ramsy]

..This question is debated for various reasons with inspectors and contractors.

Inspectors that find other issues, or ask owners when dwelling outlets were replaced, and confirm AFCI's were missing per adopted 406.4(D)4, should red tag owner's violation by retro-active permit process, not red tag the panel flippers service upgrade.

Qualified contractors can anticipate this in their service-upgrade contract, with two separate prices with & without AFCI's.

 

[dm9289]

Inspectors that find other issues, or ask owners when dwelling outlets were replaced, and confirm AFCI's were missing per adopted 406.4(D)4, should red tag owner's violation by retro-active permit process, not red tag the panel flippers service upgrade.

Qualified contractors can anticipate this in their service-upgrade contract, with two separate prices with & without AFCI'

If i were quoting i agree i would do no AFCI or outside disconnecting means, and with outdoor disconnect and AFCI where applicable

 

[dm9289]

The requirement is circuit-based, not panel-based. Thank goodness.

Yes the AFCI in old work could create nightmares for customer and Electrician

 

[readydave8]

Thank goodness.

Yes thank goodness, and I think a member here submitted this?

 

[suemarkp]

If you are changing a panel out, I would choose a plug on neutral type panel. Much neater when AFCIs are installed. It is just a matter of time before the circuits will need AFCI protection. I chose to put most of mine on AFCIs to deal with any wiring issues now rather than later. But code doesnt require it for a panel change unless you have a local rule that differs.

 

[goldstar]

With respect to a panel change or a service upgrade, you are basically replacing "like" with "like". So, AFCI's are not mandated by the NEC (or in my area). By the same token, if you have MWBC's in the existing panel that were not on 2-pole breakers you are not required to install 2-pole breakers when replacing those circuits as you would have to with a new home install.

 

[dm9289]

With respect to a panel change or a service upgrade, you are basically replacing "like" with "like". So, AFCI's are not mandated by the NEC (or in my area). By the same token, if you have MWBC's in the existing panel that were not on 2-pole breakers you are not required to install 2-pole breakers when replacing those circuits as you would have to with a new home install.

Thank you we appear to be on same page. I called IAEE they seem to agree

 

[mr.elektrek]

Even though the NEC does Not require installing new afci breakers when doing a service upgrade/panel change unless you extend circuit more than 6 ft or add additional circuits, isn't up to the AHJ to call you in replacing all existing non afci breakers with new afci's or no?

Sent from my motorola one 5G ace using Tapatalk

 

[Greentagger]

The actual language 210.12(D) Exception is “”extension of the existing branch circuit is not more than 6’ AND does not include any additional outlets…………”

 

[macmikeman]

So, since it is not panel based and only concern's extending branch circuit wiring more than 6 foot to kick in the demand for afci, what about if you encounter a situation where you will relocate the panel and it ends up shortening all the home runs instead of extending them ? (for instance due to all being attic run home runs and by moving the panel say 20' for instance you actually would be having much shorter home runs. I personally think that this ends up with the inspector stating that "this is not how I interpret the code" or some such upon electrical inspection.

 

[infinity]

So, since it is not panel based and only concern's extending branch circuit wiring more than 6 foot to kick in the demand for afci, what about if you encounter a situation where you will relocate the panel and it ends up shortening all the home runs instead of extending them ? (for instance due to all being attic run home runs and by moving the panel say 20' for instance you actually would be having much shorter home runs. I personally think that this ends up with the inspector stating that "this is not how I interpret the code" or some such upon electrical inspection.

The wording says extension shortening the branch circuit conductors is not extending anything.

 

[macmikeman]

The wording says extension shortening the branch circuit conductors is not extending anything.

Yea, I get it. I don't think the local inspectors will however. They look at any panel move as if it is "extending".......

Anyway, on almost every panel move I have made in the last ten years , there were requirements in the job to upgrade the devices to decora white, so that alone makes it a yes there will be some sort of afci protection if it is for a dwelling of some sort or another.

 

[infinity]

Yea, I get it. I don't think the local inspectors will however. They look at any panel move as if it is "extending".......

Anyway, on almost every panel move I have made in the last ten years , there were requirements in the job to upgrade the devices to decora white, so that alone makes it a yes there will be some sort of afci protection if it is for a dwelling of some sort or another.

Yes if you're changing the receptacles then you need to have AFCI protection but that's a pretty lousy inspector if he doesn't know the meaning of extension.

 

[goldstar]

I would like to post a correction to my post # 11. I've been informed by the NJ DCA Code Assistance Unit that if you have MWBC's in an existing load-center (those that weren't on 2-pole breakers) you ARE REQUIRED to install 2-pole breakers for those circuits when replacing or upgrading that load-center. I remember being told distinctly, in a CEU class that you weren't required to do that but the DCA has the final say on this.

 

[Fred B]

I would like to post a correction to my post # 11. I've been informed by the NJ DCA Code Assistance Unit that if you have MWBC's in an existing load-center (those that weren't on 2-pole breakers) you ARE REQUIRED to install 2-pole breakers for those circuits when replacing or upgrading that load-center. I remember being told distinctly, in a CEU class that you weren't required to do that but the DCA has the final say on this.

Generally speaking a MWBC you have needed either a 2 pole or use handle ties for these.
If you needed AFCI, Siemans was the only mfg that had a 2 pole AFCI, but so does Eaton now (if you can find one)