2017 NEC 210.8(B)(4) & RV park

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tortuga

tortuga

Code Historian
Location
Oregon
Occupation
Electrical Design
Quick question, looks like we now have
All single-phase receptacles rated 150 volts to ground or less, 50 amperes or less and three phase receptacles rated 150 volts to ground or less, 100 amperes or less installed in the following locations shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.
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Looking at article 551 I dont see an exemption for RV parks.
Are all RV hookups required to be GFCI protected now?
 
Intriguing! Hopefully since there is an article directly relating to RV parks that it supersedes/amends 210.8(B)(4) since I didn't see any referencing of 210.8 in article 551.
Or maybe the CMP's haven't joined thoughts on the subject yet.

The only reference I see so far for GFCI protection is 551.71(F) only 125v single phase 15 & 20 amp receptacles shall have listed ground fault protection.
 
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Looks like 551 can only modify chapters 1-4. It appears 551.71 (F) is now redundant as GFCI is required for all RV receptacles.
 
So fresh that manufacturers of pedestals have yet to change their product. Very recently ordered RV power boxes did not have GFCI protection for the 120v 30A or 120/240 50A......Yet.
 
Doing a little digging, found a small article that the code change was mid cycle and that CMP of 210.8 apparently had not conferred with CMP of article 551 as of the date of some material I came across.
 
mopowr steve said:
Doing a little digging, found a small article that the code change was mid cycle and that CMP of 210.8 apparently had not conferred with CMP of article 551 as of the date of some material I came across.
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My experience with a GFCI on a 50A 120/240 RV outlet (hot tub hookup converted to RV outlet GFCI breaker remained) is that if I plug in a GFCI tester to a 15A GFCI in the RV and press test the 50 A GFCI breaker trips first. I got curious and tried a new GFCI breaker and 15A GFCI receptacle and the 50A upstream trips every time.
 
This is an interesting question. It appears that 210.8(B) applies universally, unless a section in another article, specifically says that 210.8(B) does not apply. The fact that other articles have GFCI requirements is not the same as a rule specifically saying that 210.8(B) does not apply to that application.
 
tortuga said:
My experience with a GFCI on a 50A 120/240 RV outlet (hot tub hookup converted to RV outlet GFCI breaker remained) is that if I plug in a GFCI tester to a 15A GFCI in the RV and press test the 50 A GFCI breaker trips first. I got curious and tried a new GFCI breaker and 15A GFCI receptacle and the 50A upstream trips every time.
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I think I would be looking into some potential problems with the feeder wire on that one. Or is the 50a GFCI breaker feeding the whole panel first then a 15a GFCI recept?
 
Art. 551 needs to defer to 210.8 or include exceptions

Art. 551 needs to defer to 210.8 or include exceptions

The fact that Art. 551 Part VI DOES NOT allude to 210.8 but specifically addresses GFCI protection ONLY to the extent 125V 15 and 20A receptacles, modifies and supersedes the provisions in 210.8. Now are the other receptacles outdoors, obviously, and 210.8 DOES require outdoor receptacles are GFCI, ***BUT*** so to does 210.8 list 15 and 20A receptacles yet 551 does not list 30 or 50A receptacles. The code as written indicates, (to me at least), that these receptacles DO NOT require GFCI protection. Whether or not they should is, at this point, a matter of personal opinion.
 
Dan Haruch said:
The fact that Art. 551 Part VI DOES NOT allude to 210.8 but specifically addresses GFCI protection ONLY to the extent 125V 15 and 20A receptacles, modifies and supersedes the provisions in 210.8. Now are the other receptacles outdoors, obviously, and 210.8 DOES require outdoor receptacles are GFCI, ***BUT*** so to does 210.8 list 15 and 20A receptacles yet 551 does not list 30 or 50A receptacles. The code as written indicates, (to me at least), that these receptacles DO NOT require GFCI protection. Whether or not they should is, at this point, a matter of personal opinion.
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Dan, I don't see a partial repetition of a Chapter 1-4 rule in a Chapter 5-7 rule as a modification of the Chapter 1-4 rule. I would want to see specific language that states only the 125 volt, single phase 15 and 20 amp receptacles require GFCI protection, or something that says the provisions of 210.8 do not apply for installations covered by this article. One example of the type of language I would want to see for a modification is in 725.3 where is states that only the provisions of Article 300 that are specifically referenced in Article 725 apply to 725.

I am sure there will be a number of PIs submitted for the 2020 code cycle to clear this up.
 
Smart $ said:
Speaking of which, there is just over two weeks remaining to submit a PI.
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And as of yesterday there were ~2650 PIs submitted. Often there are 4000+ for a code cycle. I think that a lot of people may not be aware of the much earlier closing date for submissions for the 2020 cycle. For previous cycles, the closing date has always been the first Friday in November. It is September 7, 2017 for the 2020 code cycle.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
And as of yesterday there were ~2650 PIs submitted. Often there are 4000+ for a code cycle. I think that a lot of people may not be aware of the much earlier closing date for submissions for the 2020 cycle. For previous cycles, the closing date has always been the first Friday in November. It is September 7, 2017 for the 2020 code cycle.
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Do you know the reason why they moved up the closing date? Just curious.
 
stevenje said:
Do you know the reason why they moved up the closing date? Just curious.
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I don't know, but expect it is to give the CMPs more time to study the PIs before the First Draft meetings in Jan, 2018.

With the 2017 the had an early closing date for paper submissions, but kept the traditional closing date for electronic submissions. This cycle, there are only electronic submissions.
 
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