2020 NEC

jusme123

Senior Member
Location
NY
Occupation
JW
When a 12’ X 7’ kitchen peninsula requires 6 outlets, that pretty much sealed it for me. The CMP/NEC has been continually informed kids are pulling coffee pots and deep fryers off counter tops by pulling on dangling cords, yet they increase the required outlets, tell me how that makes sense?
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
When a 12’ X 7’ kitchen peninsula requires 6 outlets, that pretty much sealed it for me. The CMP/NEC has been continually informed kids are pulling coffee pots and deep fryers off counter tops by pulling on dangling cords, yet they increase the required outlets, tell me how that makes sense?

Don't search for logic and reason from the NFPA. Only when you realize their process of inference is based on a magic 8 ball does it all begins to make sense.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
When a 12’ X 7’ kitchen peninsula requires 6 outlets, that pretty much sealed it for me. The CMP/NEC has been continually informed kids are pulling coffee pots and deep fryers off counter tops by pulling on dangling cords, yet they increase the required outlets, tell me how that makes sense?
The substantiation was that there are kitchens where there are no wall countertops, but all of the normal kitchen appliances are still used in those types of kitchens. The accommodation for those appliances was made by increasing the number of receptacle outlets on islands and peninsulas. Note that the code language is "receptacle outlets" and not receptacles so you can't count a duplex as two.

There was a proposed exception for the 2023 code that would not count the portion of a island or peninsula counter top that serves a seating area for the calculation of the number of receptacles. The first revision report will be released 7/2 and we will then see what CMP 2 thought about this exception.

I do agree with the issue of the cords and the panel expanded the permission to use under counter top receptacle outlets to wall cabinets without any technical substantiation. Those should not be permitted, but right now there is only one pop up on the market that is listed for use in countertops, and the code will not typically make a rule that requires the use of a product that is only available from a single source.
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
The substantiation was that there are kitchens where there are no wall countertops, but all of the normal kitchen appliances are still used in those types of kitchens. The accommodation for those appliances was made by increasing the number of receptacle outlets on islands and peninsulas. Note that the code language is "receptacle outlets" and not receptacles so you can't count a duplex as two.

There was a proposed exception for the 2023 code that would not count the portion of a island or peninsula counter top that serves a seating area for the calculation of the number of receptacles. The first revision report will be released 7/2 and we will then see what CMP 2 thought about this exception.

I do agree with the issue of the cords and the panel expanded the permission to use under counter top receptacle outlets to wall cabinets without any technical substantiation. Those should not be permitted, but right now there is only one pop up on the market that is listed for use in countertops, and the code will not typically make a rule that requires the use of a product that is only available from a single source.


So how is this not design?
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Its one thing giving a minimum wire size as to not ignite building material letting the electrican do the rest, it is another to dictate quantity, where, why and how.
The receptacle rules have been in the code for dwelling units for decades, as a safety requirement to limit the use of extension cords.
The 2020 change is doing nothing more than to bring the NEC into alignment with modern residential kitchen design.
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
The receptacle rules have been in the code for dwelling units for decades, as a safety requirement to limit the use of extension cords.
The 2020 change is doing nothing more than to bring the NEC into alignment with modern residential kitchen design.


Doesn't mean they belong in the code. Decades ago the NEC insinuated the earth was an effective ground fault current path.

If we use "could" then why might as well mandate a receptacle every 6 inches of wall space because anyone could use an extension cord. Dedicated circuit to range hood (already happened), dedicated 6/3 circuit to the gas stove because someone might prefer electric, 6 outlets max per circuit, ect ect. All are in good faith.

I'm glad you admitted to "kitchen design"
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
...
I'm glad you admitted to "kitchen design"
Not electrical design of the kitchen...architectural design of the kitchen. The code just modified existing code receptacle requirement to work with non-traditional kitchen architectural design.
 

jusme123

Senior Member
Location
NY
Occupation
JW
It’s a design issue, but sells more receptacles, that’s why it’s there IMO. Safety of kids wasn’t even a thought, money was
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
It’s a design issue, but sells more receptacles, that’s why it’s there IMO. Safety of kids wasn’t even a thought, money was


Money talks enough to buy the mannerisms, psychology and nurolinguistic programming to convince friends of panel members their is nothing wrong with the code- simply those outside the processes don't "get it"

I know I shouldn't be using these terms, but I think its time we stop enabling a once great but now failed organization.

"Truth stands even when everything else collapses around it"- Mbrooke
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
I'm about to wire yet another commercial kitchen on my turf. There is a user friendly archy involved who, is all about my code related designs

I've my AHJ on board as well.......

welcome to the new millennium fellow spark designers

~RJ~
 
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