210.12 (B)

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HoosierSparky

HoosierSparky

Senior Plans Examiner, MEP
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Senior Plans Examiner
We are having a little conversation on the merits of 210.12 (B). Are AFCI's "ready for prime-time"? We did not adapt the 2008 NEC so this was not a hot topic, for a while. Now, that we have money, we are are adapting the 2011. This is one of the little things that we are debating. Any comments, concerns......insight?:angel:
 
HoosierSparky said:
We are having a little conversation on the merits of 210.12 (B). Are AFCI's "ready for prime-time"? We did not adapt the 2008 NEC so this was not a hot topic, for a while. Now, that we have money, we are are adapting the 2011. This is one of the little things that we are debating. Any comments, concerns......insight?:angel:
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When you adopt either 2008 or 2011 when you were on 2005 or earlier doesn't matter if AFCI's are ready for prime time or not - they are prime time in those two editions.
 
HoosierSparky said:
We are having a little conversation on the merits of 210.12 (B). Are AFCI's "ready for prime-time"? We did not adapt the 2008 NEC so this was not a hot topic, for a while. Now, that we have money, we are are adapting the 2011. This is one of the little things that we are debating. Any comments, concerns......insight?:angel:
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By "ready for prime-time" if you mean are they/have they been proven to do what they claim to, I think the jury is still out on that.
IMO, they (NEC) put the cart before the horse. Example, the code says we can use AFCI receptacles when there are none available as of yet. That has been in the code for a while.
Also, I don't think the parallel part of them works correctly, especially on a glowing contact on a device. I think the part that did work was the GFCI part of them. Now some of the mfgs. have taken that out of them.

Edit: They also don't hold up well in a lightning storm. I had to replace one a couple of weeks ago.
 
kwired said:
When you adopt either 2008 or 2011 when you were on 2005 or earlier doesn't matter if AFCI's are ready for prime time or not - they are prime time in those two editions.
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The part of 210.12 (B) that is in discussion is the expanded application of where AFCI's are to be used from that stated in the 2005 version.

2008 & 2011 added "living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas" along with bedrooms. AFCI circuit breakers are fine and work fairly well. I haven't had much experience or heard much on the functionality and cost of the AFCI recepticles.

It is understandable to provide AFCI protection to sleeping areas due to sleeping people not being aware of a fire starting, but living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, etc? People are generally awake in these areas. Sound more like an insurance company addition to protect property more than a life/saftey issue.
 
HoosierSparky said:
The part of 210.12 (B) that is in discussion is the expanded application of where AFCI's are to be used from that stated in the 2005 version.

2008 & 2011 added "living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas" along with bedrooms. AFCI circuit breakers are fine and work fairly well. I haven't had much experience or heard much on the functionality and cost of the AFCI recepticles.

It is understandable to provide AFCI protection to sleeping areas due to sleeping people not being aware of a fire starting, but living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, etc? People are generally awake in these areas. Sound more like an insurance company addition to protect property more than a life/saftey issue.
Click to expand...

Remember that a cord pinched under a sofa, doesn't know if its day or night.
 
An AFCI breaker helped me discover a a "flying splice" hidden in a ceiling. Circuit worked fine before panel change. Circuit kept tripping the breaker. NM left one box colored black entered the next box with a white sheath.

One good experience just after they came out. So I'll say that I'm sold.
 
HoosierSparky said:
The part of 210.12 (B) that is in discussion is the expanded application of where AFCI's are to be used from that stated in the 2005 version.

2008 & 2011 added "living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas" along with bedrooms. AFCI circuit breakers are fine and work fairly well. I haven't had much experience or heard much on the functionality and cost of the AFCI recepticles.

It is understandable to provide AFCI protection to sleeping areas due to sleeping people not being aware of a fire starting, but living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, etc? People are generally awake in these areas. Sound more like an insurance company addition to protect property more than a life/saftey issue.
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Since you did not adopt the 2008 where you are you are 4-5 years behind many others with this discussion. AFCI is required in those areas whether you agree with it or not so you better learn to live with it, many of us felt the same way you do, just happend to do so 4-5 years ago.

AFCI receptacles? there is wording in 2011 that allows for them, have not heard if any manufacurer even has them on market yet so can not claim anything for how well they perform. My understanding is their use got put in 2011 as there was a chance they would be on market before 2014 code comes out (another debate in itself there)
 
jxofaltrds said:
An AFCI breaker helped me discover a a "flying splice" hidden in a ceiling. Circuit worked fine before panel change. Circuit kept tripping the breaker. NM left one box colored black entered the next box with a white sheath.

One good experience just after they came out. So I'll say that I'm sold.
Click to expand...

Megging would have found it as well. And meggers have been around for quite a while.
 
jxofaltrds said:
An AFCI breaker helped me discover a a "flying splice" hidden in a ceiling. Circuit worked fine before panel change. Circuit kept tripping the breaker. NM left one box colored black entered the next box with a white sheath.

One good experience just after they came out. So I'll say that I'm sold.
Click to expand...

Why does the AFCI know or care what color the insulation is? There had to be more to the problem than just a change of color or the flying splice.
 
480sparky said:
Megging would have found it as well. And meggers have been around for quite a while.
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Do you megger as part of a panel change out?

kwired said:
Why does the AFCI know or care what color the insulation is? There had to be more to the problem than just a change of color or the flying splice.
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Sorry my AFCI breakers are not PC (politically correct).
I would not have known about this hazard had it not been for me installing AFCIs.
 
HoosierSparky said:
...
It is understandable to provide AFCI protection to sleeping areas due to sleeping people not being aware of a fire starting, but living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, etc? People are generally awake in these areas. Sound more like an insurance company addition to protect property more than a life/saftey issue.
Click to expand...
That would have made some sense if the majority of the dwelling unit fires with fatalities originated in the sleeping areas, but they don't. It is true that the majority of the deaths occur in the sleeping areas, but often the fire that results in the death has its point of origin outside of the sleeping areas.
 
jxofaltrds said:
Do you megger as part of a panel change out?



Sorry my AFCI breakers are not PC (politically correct).
I would not have known about this hazard had it not been for me installing AFCIs.
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Well you said your AFCI found a problem, yet you only described code violations, and no actual fault conditions the device is intended to respond to. It had to trip for a reason other than a change of color I would hope.

I guess these "smart" breakers are going to eliminate the need for elecrical inspectors someday:lol:
 
kwired said:
Well you said your AFCI found a problem, yet you only described code violations, and no actual fault conditions the device is intended to respond to. It had to trip for a reason other than a change of color I would hope.

I guess these "smart" breakers are going to eliminate the need for elecrical inspectors someday:lol:
Click to expand...

"An AFCI breaker helped me discover a a "flying splice" hidden in a ceiling. Circuit worked fine before panel change. Circuit kept tripping the breaker. NM left one box colored black entered the next box with a white sheath.

One good experience just after they came out. So I'll say that I'm sold. "

LOL.
 
jxofaltrds said:
"An AFCI breaker helped me discover a a "flying splice" hidden in a ceiling. Circuit worked fine before panel change. Circuit kept tripping the breaker. NM left one box colored black entered the next box with a white sheath.

One good experience just after they came out. So I'll say that I'm sold. "

LOL.
Click to expand...

Why did a change of color cause the breaker to trip, so far that is really all you told us you had found? Flying splice somewhere in between, although needs addressed is not going to cause it to trip either.
 
kwired said:
Why did a change of color cause the breaker to trip, so far that is really all you told us you had found? Flying splice somewhere in between, although needs addressed is not going to cause it to trip either.
Click to expand...

Loose connection.

I would not have known about it for the AFCI breaker.
 
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