210.5(C).....and other questions regarding different systems.

[Barjack]

I am wiring a doctor's office as a build out in a new space in an existing building. The office will be supplied from two nominal voltage systems (120/208Y for receptacles, X-ray, and other equipment, and 277/480Y for lighting, HVAC, and water heater). The panel room for this space is not located inside the space, but in another part of the building on the same floor. I am bringing the home runs into the panel room in 3/4" EMT, but due to the number of bends, I am putting a pull box just inside the panel room for the wires to pass through on their way to their respective panels. Conduits from both systems will be passing through the same box.

My questions are as follows:

1. 210.5(C) requires ungrounded conductors of different systems to be identified by phase or line and system at all termination, splice and connection points. A pull box does not require such identification, right?

2. Does marking the J-box covers inside the office by color, line and system count for identification? An example would be: H3(panel) Black-2, Red-4, Blue-6, White-N, 277/480Y.

3. Are there any other requirements for mixing conductors of different systems? All wire is THHN/THWN 600V, and the pull box is the only place where the two systems enter the same enclosure.

Thanks in advance.

-Chris

 

[cowboyjwc]

Without answering your question, I'm going to say this, the problem is, and this is coming from an inspector, in an existing building you may not be doing a service by identifying the circuits by color, unless you are sure that those colors are carried out throughout the entire building already.

 

[augie47]

I agree with John. If the building (possibly due to age) does not already have the systems identified with the ID posted at the panel, you best have a long chat with the AHJ as to what will be expected.
210.5 would call for the identification you mention to be at the panelboard.
Your question also prompts me to ask if you are in compliance with 240.24

 

[Barjack]

Without answering your question, I'm going to say this, the problem is, and this is coming from an inspector, in an existing building you may not be doing a service by identifying the circuits by color, unless you are sure that those colors are carried out throughout the entire building already.

It wasn't just by color. H3 (panel), Black (color), 2 (circuit # in panel), 277/480Y (system). This identification would be on every J-box cover.

 

[augie47]

I would be hard pressed to say that met 210.5, but the final call will be by your AHJ.
If the building (not just your install) does not meet Code I would think at a minimum he will not let you mix systems.

 

[sandsnow]

Without answering your question, I'm going to say this, the problem is, and this is coming from an inspector, in an existing building you may not be doing a service by identifying the circuits by color, unless you are sure that those colors are carried out throughout the entire building already.

In old bldgs this requirement is almost worthless to enforce. And I don't have bldgs half as old as John does.

 

[Barjack]

I agree with John. If the building (possibly due to age) does not already have the systems identified with the ID posted at the panel, you best have a long chat with the AHJ as to what will be expected.
210.5 would call for the identification you mention to be at the panelboard.
Your question also prompts me to ask if you are in compliance with 240.24

Although it is an existing building, it is new. The first floor is occupied. on the second and third floors, picture a hallway splitting the long halves of a rectangular building. On each side of the hallway is an open space. Half of one of these spaces on the third floor is the doctor's office. The panel room is accessible from the hallway on the same floor.

I should also mention the existing panel layout. Each floor is fed with a 277/480Y feed into a panelboard. This panel will serve the lights, HVAC, and water heater in my unit. A 175A breaker feeds a transformer that steps down to 120/208Y that feeds 2 more panels, one of which will be used in my unit for receptacles and general power.

The only use of the 277/480Y panel on my floor is for temp lighting illuminating the unused spaces. I have also asked my inspector about color coding, and he says that as long as it complies with NEC 2008 he will pass it.

 

[augie47]

It's a question only he can answer.
I would not accept it your plan, he might.
This is the common method here:
(actually by local ordinance, orange is not accepted on 480/277, purple is accceptabe)

 

[Barjack]

I would be hard pressed to say that met 210.5, but the final call will be by your AHJ.
If the building (not just your install) does not meet Code I would think at a minimum he will not let you mix systems.

The only place where the systems will be mixed is in the pull box in the panel room. There are no splice points, terminations, or connections in this box. The existing panels are identified by system. How can this be a violation?

 

[Barjack]

There are no local codes I am aware of that require specific color coding of different systems.

That being said, I haven't actually pulled the conductors for the 277/480Y panel yet. I just might use brown/yellow/purple/gray(N) just to be safe. That also being said, I did use Blk/Rd/Blue/W, and Brn/Or/Yellow/Gray for my 120V receptacle circuits.

 

[augie47]

If the building was inspected and passed under the '05 or '08 Code there should be a system for identification in place now and you would follow that system.
By Code, the method of identification should be posted at each panel, so you, or any other E/C could follow the practice.
If that's not the situation then you are at the inspectors mercy as to what he accepts.
I'm not trying to argue with you, but I don't think anyone here can tell you what he would accept. What I posted is "standard" here but it's your inspector's call as to what meets Code at your building.
The problem is the entire building should meet the same specs.
Identifying the panels isn't enough, 210.5 requires the conductors be identified or tagged.
What you plan may be acceptable locally.

 

[shepelec]

There are no local codes I am aware of that require specific color coding of different systems.

That being said, I haven't actually pulled the conductors for the 277/480Y panel yet. I just might use brown/yellow/purple/gray(N) just to be safe. That also being said, I did use Blk/Rd/Blue/W, and Brn/Or/Yellow/Gray for my 120V receptacle circuits.

Your above post is one reason for the code requirement of marking voltages.

Generaly we would use black, red, blue and white for 120/208/240v systems and brown, orange , yellow and grey for 277/480v. You need to keep your colors consistant. In this case it is not anything goes or some one will get hurt.

 

[Barjack]

Your above post is one reason for the code requirement of marking voltages.

Generaly we would use black, red, blue and white for 120/208/240v systems and brown, orange , yellow and grey for 277/480v. You need to keep your colors consistant. In this case it is not anything goes or some one will get hurt.

In my case, I think it is anything goes. The circuit supplying the temp lights on two 3 way switches is fed by orange, with a white neutral, a black switch leg, and purple travelers.

 

[Barjack]

In my situation, the system is identified at the panel, but no color coding. Would I just use the existing color coding already in place? I don't think I necessarily have to do this, as color coding is not the only approved means.