210.52(A)(2)(3) Free Standing Bar-type Counters

[infinity]

Is there an actual definition of what a "free standing bar-type counter" is in the NEC? It seems that the words bar-type would mean that this does not apply to a peninsula that separates a kitchen from another room.

 

[Buck Parrish]

I'd say "free standing" separates it from being a peninsula. But I don't know if they have an actual definition.
BTW What year is that code reference?

 

[Fred B]

Seems to be a case of mixing terms that create confusion. The 2017 addition of that section would seem to imply an area similar to an island, when it states a "fixed room divider" and then refer to "free standing". This would seem to imply an island (as it is not attached to a wall) but not that is within a single space but acts to divide a space from another, such as one between a kitchen and dining or living area. It implies that island can be counted toward your linear distance limits for receptacle spacing within this limited scope. A peninsula fitting within the same criteria would also seem to fit the requirements if it acts to divide or seperate rooms.

 

[infinity]

I'd say "free standing" separates it from being a peninsula. But I don't know if they have an actual definition.
BTW What year is that code reference?

2017 NEC. I agree free standing removes a peninsula from the discussion. I don't see how an island is automatically a bar type counter unless they provide us with a definition of one.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Since that section is not under islands I suspect that are talking dividers such as this outside the kitchen area. So, you may have a den with a wet bar or just a plain old short wall separating areas of a home.

 

[wwhitney]

I take "free standing" counters in (3) to be in contrast to the counters mentioned in (1) that are supported by cabinets. . The free standing counter could still run into a wall. As to "bar-type" no idea what that's trying to say

BTW, does part (1) mean that a peninsula 2' or longer needs a receptacle on each side? It seems like the definition of wall space encompasses peninsulas.

Also, since the 2' limit is only present in (1), does that mean that an 18" long "fixed room divider" needs a receptacle on each side?

Cheers, Wayne

 

[marmathsen]

I take "free standing" counters in (3) to be in contrast to the counters mentioned in (1) that are supported by cabinets. . The free standing counter could still run into a wall. As to "bar-type" no idea what that's trying to say

I agree in that a (1) rules out a cabinet with a counter. And I guess in thinking about it, a floating bar top that is either mounted to the floor via legs and/or mounted to a wall is possibly what they're referring to. Thus a bar-type room divider could refer to a peninsula.

BTW, does part (1) mean that a peninsula 2' or longer needs a receptacle on each side? It seems like the definition of wall space encompasses peninsulas.

Only if you consider the space beyond the peninsula to be a doorway or similar opening, which in most cases I would not consider it as such.

Also, since the 2' limit is only present in (1), does that mean that an 18" long "fixed room divider" needs a receptacle on each side?

Or for that matter, a 4x6 post. What determines a "panel" in (2)?

 

[wwhitney]

I agree in that a (1) rules out a cabinet with a counter.

In the sense that a cabinet with a counter is counted as wall space, while a cabinet without a counter is not counted as wall space.

Only if you consider the space beyond the peninsula to be a doorway or similar opening, which in most cases I would not consider it as such.

That was my initial take (and something that I think makes a nice kitchen to DR transition, say an 8' wide cased opening with a peninsula occupying half of it). But then consider the contrived example pictured below: the black are the wall of a room, the red is a wing wall floor to ceiling, and the blue is base cabinets with a countertop (a peninsula).

I think every agrees the red wall counts as wall space on both sides? Then I don't see any language in (1) that distinguishes the red wall from the blue peninsula, meaning that the blue peninsula would also be considered wall space. An unexpected result.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Fred B]

Another aspect is that this code item is not limited to a kitchen as it falls under general provisions wall space.

 

[infinity]

I think every agrees the red wall counts as wall space on both sides? Then I don't see any language in (1) that distinguishes the red wall from the blue peninsula, meaning that the blue peninsula would also be considered wall space. An unexpected result.


View attachment 2558242

The difference is that the peninsula is not a wall and 210.52(A)(2)(3) makes no reference to a peninsula counting as wall space. That the basis of the thread because the wording says "free standing bar-type counter". What is a "free standing bar-type counter"? IMO it is not a peninsula or even an island. Kitchen peninsulas and kitchen islands already have separate rules for receptacle spacing.

 

[wwhitney]

The difference is that the peninsula is not a wall and 210.52(A)(2)(3) makes no reference to a peninsula counting as wall space.

Right, but my point is that they appear to wall spaces under 210.52(A)(2)(1). As the wall space is only broken by "doorways and similar openings, fireplaces, and fixed cabinets that do not have countertops or similar work surfaces."

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Fred B]

The difference is that the peninsula is not a wall and 210.52(A)(2)(3) makes no reference to a peninsula counting as wall space. That the basis of the thread because the wording says "free standing bar-type counter". What is a "free standing bar-type counter"? IMO it is not a peninsula or even an island. Kitchen peninsulas and kitchen islands already have separate rules for receptacle spacing.

But that is why this is a seperate reference from that included with the kitchen, #3 differentiates itself from #1 refence to fixed cabinets.
Maybe someone has access to the code panel comments on this change.