210.60 & "permanent provisions for cooking"

[tortuga]

What do you all think "permanent provisions for cooking" is in realtion to 210.60 and guest suites?
Does a countertop with a sink, microwave and a mini fringe below count as permanent provisions for cooking?
When I think permanent I think 'fastened in place', like a range with range hood fan or a dishwasher.
It could also just mean simply a dedicated countertop with drawers for utensils.
Thoughts?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

And the microwave in that application is not "fastened in place"?
This is poor code language as there is nothing that is actually "permanent". There have been attempts to fix this, but nothing has changed. Most inspection authorities will not count that as a dwelling unit, but some will.

 

[letgomywago]

And the microwave in that application is not "fastened in place"?
This is poor code language as there is nothing that is actually "permanent". There have been attempts to fix this, but nothing has changed. Most inspection authorities will not count that as a dwelling unit, but some will.

I've been told by some inspectors they won't count a non attached microwave but a bolted in one with trim kit they will. Usually a bolted in micro will be only installed when there's a range and a micro hood is used. Now I've never asked anyone does a micro area of a shelf but no trim kit in one that is the shape of a micro does that apply. Still silly. More complicating the issue is there are people who live in hotel rooms full time.

 

[Joe.B]

People around me who get to make those kind of decisions have determined that you can't "cook" with a microwave. You can heat food or water, but that's not cooking. A hotplate can accomplish cooking, and to make it "permanent" it should be bolted in place. When those decisions were being made it was for a facility that was likely to have "tenants" who would sell a microwave or hotplate if they could so the applicants were all for bolting them in.

 

[mtnelect]

And the microwave in that application is not "fastened in place"?
This is poor code language as there is nothing that is actually "permanent". There have been attempts to fix this, but nothing has changed. Most inspection authorities will not count that as a dwelling unit, but some will.

It all depends on the meaning of the word "Is", also, in what "Context".

 

[LarryFine]

Does a countertop with a sink, microwave and a mini fringe below count as permanent provisions for cooking?

In my opinion, they are the epitome of what they had in mind as not being permanent means.

 

[charlie b]

My view is that heating food counts as cooking, regardless of what appliance is used. I believe that there is nothing you can do with a hot plate that you could not also do with a microwave.

I worked on a project for which this question was key to the design. It was for military personnel housing. Each "unit" had one to four sleeping rooms. Each had a common living area, a bathroom, and a "kitchen." A debate centered on whether each unit could be treated as a "dwelling unit." The answer would have a huge impact on the service calculation.

The consensus was that if the architect placed the microwave on the counter or on a shelf (i.e., above the counter), the electrical engineer could not use the dwelling unit calculation process. The decision made was to permanently mount them on frames above the counter, and the service calculation treated the facility as a multi-family dwelling unit.

 

[tortuga]

Thank you all for the responses this is similar to what you describe Charlie.
The units have been classified as 'guest suites' and meet the NEC definition of guest suite, but as soon as you have an area for cooking it seems 210.60 pulls in all the rules for a dwelling kitchen in terms of two 20A circuits and receptacle placement.

It is also interesting how a by NEC definition a 'guest suite' with a cooking area can also meet the definition of a 'dwelling unit'.

 

[jim dungar]

It is also interesting how a by NEC definition a 'guest suite' with a cooking area can also meet the definition of a 'dwelling unit'.

In my opinion, this is not a call for the electrician to make. This is what AHJs and architect and engineers get paid to do.
There are a lot of other trade codes that become involved once it is called a dwelling unit.

 

[roger]

I have cooked fish and beef roasts from raw to done in a microwave at times

 

[jim dungar]

I have cooked fish and beef roasts from raw to done in a microwave at times

I have even taken them all the way to overdone and burnt.

 

[tortuga]

In my opinion, this is not a call for the electrician to make. This is what AHJs and architect and engineers get paid to do.
There are a lot of other trade codes that become involved once it is called a dwelling unit.

While I dont disagree these are residential projects or light commercial not industrial I am basically working as the EE on these not a JW and I am curious about how the brains such as yourself on here think.

 

[jim dungar]

While I dont disagree these are residential projects or light commercial not industrial I am basically working as the EE on these not a JW and I am curious about how the brains such as yourself on here think.

What do the other disciplines call it?

 

[augie47]

Locally, it's been what Charlieb and others have stated... permanently mounted microwave ="permanent cooking"

 

[Strathead]

Locally, it's been what Charlieb and others have stated... permanently mounted microwave ="permanent cooking"

As was briefly touched upon here. Very poorly worded for today's kitchen configurations. What is "permanently mounted" about a free standing range? And when you consider the amount of impact this one item makes on the entire installation, not just calculations...