210.8 (B)

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T74

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Hey, just looking for someone to hopefully tell me I'm wrong...

I have a GFI or not GFI question.

A three phase 30 amp 120 /208 volt twist lock receptacle in a commercial kitchen.

It seems new 2017 rules says this has to be a GFI circuit. 210.8(B)

I'm asking because the panel is a QO bolt in and a Sq D Bolt on 3 pole 30 amp GFI breaker is $$$.

Thanks
 
The only relief you are going to get is if the jurisdiction the twistlock receptacle is in has amended the 2017 NEC 210.8(B) . . . yes, the multipole GFCIs are pricey.

Oh, and as an aside, I have been reading the First Draft of the 2020 NEC, and, although this is not final yet, the same thing is going to be in the 2020 NEC 210.8(A).
 
T74 said:
Hey, just looking for someone to hopefully tell me I'm wrong...

I have a GFI or not GFI question.

A three phase 30 amp 120 /208 volt twist lock receptacle in a commercial kitchen.

It seems new 2017 rules says this has to be a GFI circuit. 210.8(B)

I'm asking because the panel is a QO bolt in and a Sq D Bolt on 3 pole 30 amp GFI breaker is $$$.

Thanks
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Unless they absolutely must be able to unplug the equipment for some reason, time to start planning to direct wire such equipment if you want to do it for less $$$.

That said the only substantiation I have seen for the change so far is something to the effect of "they now make device that meet the listing standards" and no real mentioning of whether or not there has historically been many incidents where GFCI may have saved an injury or a life on such equipment, which used to be what justified adding more locations to require GFCI protection.
 
Just a thought....

Newer GE resi GFCI breakers can be handle-tied to operate together. Adding a small resi style three-phase subpanel with the aforementioned breakers would be a inexpensive solution. I don't know for sure that GE makes such a panel. I have installed similar CH three-phase panels.
 
Coppersmith said:
Just a thought....

Newer GE resi GFCI breakers can be handle-tied to operate together. Adding a small resi style three-phase subpanel with the aforementioned breakers would be a inexpensive solution. I don't know for sure that GE makes such a panel. I have installed similar CH three-phase panels.
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Can you document that GE GFCI single poles can be handle tied and operate correctly on a multiwire branch circuit ?
 
Coppersmith said:
Just a thought....

Newer GE resi GFCI breakers can be handle-tied to operate together. Adding a small resi style three-phase subpanel with the aforementioned breakers would be a inexpensive solution. I don't know for sure that GE makes such a panel. I have installed similar CH three-phase panels.
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:? Are you sure you are not thinking about GE AFCI breakers?
 
david said:
you have to wonder what provides better life safety a local disconnect or GFCI protection for 30 amp rec.
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You also have to wonder how high the risk really is. Only good reason for GFCI protection here is for the possibility that the EGC becomes compromised. That possibility should be lower risk for something hard wired than for something cord and plug connected.

How many times you seen compromised EGC on a 5-15 or 5-20 plug vs a 30 amp locking plug? Bet it is almost never on the locking plug.
 
As an aside, can one run say ....a 3ph shunt trip ...through one of these>

ele6895e_2.jpg


serving a dedicated kitchen panel....?

~RJ~
 
romex jockey said:
As an aside, can one run say ....a 3ph shunt trip ...through one of these>

ele6895e_2.jpg


serving a dedicated kitchen panel....?

~RJ~
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Can't directly connect to a shunt coil need a NC relay between the two. Could possibly be tricky resetting without delays being involved or a control circuit from a separate branch circuit.

That said, from past threads talking about that product, I don't believe it is listed for such. I seem to recall it is a "recognized component" and not a general use GFCI or only listed for specific applications/conditions. Most places you do see it is part of a listed assembly.

But if it is acceptable would be a great idea, I think.
 
I have seen it used for refrigerator above counter and for a dishwasher as well, where the person was going to use switches but wanted 20 amps to plugs, and switches only fifteen amps. He wanted to have the ability to cut the power to the outlets if a water problem occurred, so he could safely remove them from the wall spaces without turning off breakers. Never heard if they were code allowed. But they are not three phase.
 
Adamjamma said:
I have seen it used for refrigerator above counter and for a dishwasher as well, where the person was going to use switches but wanted 20 amps to plugs, and switches only fifteen amps. He wanted to have the ability to cut the power to the outlets if a water problem occurred, so he could safely remove them from the wall spaces without turning off breakers. Never heard if they were code allowed. But they are not three phase.
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I think you are thinking of a "blank face" (no receptacle) device. Look closer to this one, it has a loop on the back side in which you pass the circuit conductors you intend to protect through, then you must connect some control components to the terminals in a manner that it will interrupt the protected circuit when there is imbalance current through the loop. It shouldn't matter what voltage, amperage or number of phases passes through that loop, just that all the conductors of the circuit will physically fit and there is no current leaking outside those conductors for it to hold.
 
kwired said:
I think you are thinking of a "blank face" (no receptacle) device. Look closer to this one, it has a loop on the back side in which you pass the circuit conductors you intend to protect through, then you must connect some control components to the terminals in a manner that it will interrupt the protected circuit when there is imbalance current through the loop. It shouldn't matter what voltage, amperage or number of phases passes through that loop, just that all the conductors of the circuit will physically fit and there is no current leaking outside those conductors for it to hold.
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I once took 3 phases thru a spa disco's blank face

one of these, just imagine a blue instead of white wire>


24857d1284602977-hot-tub-water-electrified-60-volts-please-help-spa-disconnect-5.jpg



the contactor dropped out the motor starter on a 3ph pool pump setup

I was obviously guilty of a 'listing violation' ,and you should have seen the look on the then AHJ's face...…

he started at it for quite some time too....

~RJ~
 
Coppersmith said:
Maybe I am thinking of the AFCI. Someone here posted a spec from GE saying the device could be handle-tied. Sorry for the confusion.
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GFCI must have all conductors of the circuit pass through the torrid coil, if the circuit utilizes a neutral it must be included. Any current over 4-6 mA threshold that doesn't pass through the torrid is going to unbalance it and make it trip.

Newer GE AFCI's no longer have 30 mA GFP component, somehow they found a way to meet listing requirements without it where others either haven't figured it out or have other reasons why they think it still needs to be there. That lack of GFP is what allows you to tie handles together on the GE breakers as there is no detection of "leakage current" which would otherwise cause undesired tripping if you intentionally did this with two separate breakers that use GFP components.
 
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