210.8 - Exception?

[shockin]

My question is in regards to a residential generator installation. There is a 120v duplex receptacle installed for the battery charger and block heater. (Each one plugs in seperatly) Is this outlet required to be GFCI protected?

I know there where some changes in '08 for residential GFCI use, but this installation would be '05. It looks to me like 210.8 would indicate that it IS required because it is outdoors. It is however with in a "weather proof" enclosure. If you consider them weather proof.

For what it's worth the generator service company is saying it shouldn't be GFCI protected.

Thanks for the help!

 

[480sparky]

There's no 2005 NEC exceptions for outside receps from GFI protection save for those installed for snow melting/de-icing.

 

[Twoskinsoneman]

My question is in regards to a residential generator installation. There is a 120v duplex receptacle installed for the battery charger and block heater. (Each one plugs in seperatly) Is this outlet required to be GFCI protected?

I know there where some changes in '08 for residential GFCI use, but this installation would be '05. It looks to me like 210.8 would indicate that it IS required because it is outdoors. It is however with in a "weather proof" enclosure. If you consider them weather proof.

For what it's worth the generator service company is saying it shouldn't be GFCI protected.

Thanks for the help!

There isn't an exception for residential generators if that's what you mean.

It does have to be in a weather proof enclosure but that doesn't change the requirement it be GFCI

 

[shockin]

It does have to be in a weather proof enclosure but that doesn't change the requirement it be GFCI

Would it still be considered outside if it is with-in an enclosure? At what point does something become structure?

Off the record - if it was your generator, would you install a GFCI and run the risk of not having your generator avaialable when you need it most?

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

Would it still be considered outside if it is with-in an enclosure? At what point does something become structure?

Off the record - if it was your generator, would you install a GFCI and run the risk of not having your generator avaialable when you need it most?

That is a good question.

I would reference 210.8(A)(2) as a reference that, although it may be a structure, it would still require GFCI protection. Being a structure is in itself not enough to determine whether or not GFCI protection is required or not.

 

[Twoskinsoneman]

Would it still be considered outside if it is with-in an enclosure? At what point does something become structure?

Off the record - if it was your generator, would you install a GFCI and run the risk of not having your generator avaialable when you need it most?

The NEC doesn't define outside but IMO the NEC implies (along with common definitions) equipent inside an enclosure that is outside... is still outside.

I'm probably not the one to ask... I absolutely positively always install GFCIs where they are required by code and have never had one nuisance trip on me except when I was using a hand held radio 10 inches away from a 15 year old breaker GFCI. :smile:

 

[shockin]

I appreciate everyones replys

I do agree that it should be a GFCI but the service company doesn't seem to. Would it make any differance we are simply supplying power (120v) to a pre-wired piece of equipment. The non-GFCI duplex recept is factory installed and wired. The devices come plugged in to it.

Thanks again.

 

[Twoskinsoneman]

It makes no difference what you are plugging in. If 210.8 says the receptacle you are installing needs to be GFCI protected than it needs GFCI.

I wouldn't be worried about nuisance tripping. If the product is new and listed and installed roperly it won't trip .

 

[shockin]

I wouldn't be worried about nuisance tripping. If the product is new and listed and installed roperly it won't trip .

That's the problem I have. We did install a GFCI breaker to protect it, (since the outlet was factory installed), and it did trip. It was the middle of winter and without the block heater, and a cold dead battery, it wouldn't start. There was a power outage and the customer needed power and you can see where this is going...

They called a very reputable generator repair company who came and reset the GFCI and told the HO is should never have been put on a GFCI. The manufactures directions don't mention anything about installing a GFCI breaker to protect it, we just thought it was required and a good idea.

 

[480sparky]

If the GFI keeps tripping, replace it.

If it continues, you've got a problem that should be corrected.

 

[Twoskinsoneman]

That's the problem I have. We did install a GFCI breaker to protect it, (since the outlet was factory installed), and it did trip. It was the middle of winter and without the block heater, and a cold dead battery, it wouldn't start. There was a power outage and the customer needed power and you can see where this is going...

They called a very reputable generator repair company who came and reset the GFCI and told the HO is should never have been put on a GFCI. The manufactures directions don't mention anything about installing a GFCI breaker to protect it, we just thought it was required and a good idea.

If the GFI keeps tripping, replace it.

If it continues, you've got a problem that should be corrected.

480 is exactly right. Something is wrong. Could be a bad GFCI...or maybe waters is getting in some where. The problem is not the technology...

 

[augie47]

Shame one has to wait til 2013 now for a change. Exempting twist-lok seems to me to be a good alternative. Shockin's comment about it being in the enclosure has merit, but I've always been concerned that someone working on the generator would use that same outlet for his hand tools and I wouldn't want the liability of allowing it to not be GFCI.
You might add a pilot light to the circuit to give the homeowner some indication if the GFCI trips.

 

[benaround]

Maybe a tradeoff is in order, the generator co. hardwires their devices to switches and

you remove the GFCI breaker ?

 

[ceb58]

Not knowing what size and/or brand gen. set you have but this is what I do on my generators. I put the charger wireing (built in charger) on the line side of the GFCI and just plug the block heater in. When the factory gen. tech. comes to do the start up I have him program the low temp. alarm to 50 deg. (must be done with a laptop). Chances are the block heater will be the first thing to go bad and make the GFIC trip. That way the charger is still on and some one will be alerted to a problem with the alarm.

 

[tom baker]

Yes install the GFCI. If the block heater faults, the GFCI will save your life. Plus, you should check the block heater for proper operation weekly (see if its warm)