220.14 (D) Luminaires question

[Strathead]

"An outlet supplying luminaires shall be calculated based on the maximum volt-ampere rating of the equipment and lamps for which the luminaires is rated"

So, I am looking at a circuit they want to add lights to. The existing are Halo cans and the sticker on the inside lists various trims and a maximum wattage for each trim type. You have to remove the trim to even see the sticker. Can you use the rating for the trim you install, or must you rate it for the maximum wattage regardless of the trim provided?

Also, please tell me if you consider this a gray area or a clear code issue. In recent times I once wondered a similar question about a LED retrofit kit. The ones that you screw in to the lampholder. Can you then reduce the calculated size of the can for branch circuit sizing. My instinct says no for both of the above, but I can see arguments that allow it as well. Like a 2x4 fluorescent that is equipped with 2 lamps, but the slots are there for the additional two lamps, for example.

 

[Cavie]

Just wire for 10 to 12 outlets (lights an/or receps) per circuit and you'll never go wrong. NO inspector is gonna take the time to look at or worry about the lighting load in a residence.

 

[Strathead]

Just wire for 10 to 12 outlets (lights an/or receps) per circuit and you'll never go wrong. NO inspector is gonna take the time to look at or worry about the lighting load in a residence.

First, it isn't a residence and second, I am not asking what I can get away with, I am asking what is right. Third, a can light is not an outlet. Fourth it is 13 outlets on a 20 amp circuit.

 

[joebell]

Your answer lies in the language of 220.14(D), the word maximum would require you to calculate according to the largest lamp the luminaire can supply. In regards to the LED I think your answer can be found in 220.18(B), this specifically addresses LED's (NEC 2011).

also one side note if this is not a residence then the lighting circuit may need to be considered a continuos load.

 

[Cavie]

First, it isn't a residence and second, I am not asking what I can get away with, I am asking what is right. Third, a can light is not an outlet. Fourth it is 13 outlets on a 20 amp circuit.

First, Sorry, I didn't realies that it wasn't a residence. My bad, but it doesn't make any difference. Your not talking about a service load calculation. Second, I wasn't telling you what you can get away with. I told you what you would never have a problem with. Third, please look up the definition of and outlet. Forth,Please quote the NEC code# for 13 outlets on a circuit.

 

[joebell]

Just wire for 10 to 12 outlets (lights an/or receps) per circuit and you'll never go wrong. NO inspector is gonna take the time to look at or worry about the lighting load in a residence.

With all due respect where in the NEC does the 10 to 12 number come into play in a non residential installation ?

 

[n1ist]

A can light *is* an outlet. It isn't a receptacle outlet unless you put a pignose in it...

Outlet: A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment

/mike

 

[Strathead]

First,I know it's not a residence. Second, I wasn't telling you what you can get away with. I told you what you would never have a problem with. Third, please look up the definition of and outlet. Forth,Please quote the NEC code# for 13 outlets on a circuit.

A can light is utilization equipment not an outlet. I throw your challenge right at you to look up the definitions. 220.14 specifies 180VA per outlet for receptacle outlets and non specified outlets. That is where the elusive # or outlets on a circuit comes from. There is no code that actually specifies it, so I made an assumption that your statement was based in this code. as such 2400VA divided by 180VA equals 13.3333333333333333 outlets on a 20 amp circuit and 10 on a 15 amp circuit. I am sorry, but I don't really see a difference between "what you would never have a problem with" and "what you can get away with" assuming that you are referring to a potential code violation.

 

[augie47]

The 10, 12, 13 rule stems from 220.14 (I) that uses 180 va for receptacle outlet loads in most non-dwelling situations.

 

[augie47]

It maybe a matter of semantics, but as I read the Art 100 definition, I would consider any light fixture as an outlet, perhaps more specifically the point where the fixture is connected to the wiring system.
I think the OP is a valid question. For myself, I have always inspected based on the maximum lamp the fixture should have with the trim installed.
Beyond that, for me, it becomes a "what if". What it they change trims is no different than what if they change the whole, fixture.

 

[Cavie]

With all due respect where in the NEC does the 10 to 12 number come into play in a non residential installation ?

It's not. It's an arbitrary # to stay out of a pissing match with any inspector.

 

[Strathead]

Your answer lies in the language of 220.14(D), the word maximum would require you to calculate according to the largest lamp the luminaire can supply. In regards to the LED I think your answer can be found in 220.18(B), this specifically addresses LED's (NEC 2011).

also one side note if this is not a residence then the lighting circuit may need to be considered a continuos load.

Respectfully, I don't think you answered anything. I already posted the wording of 220.14 (D) and then stated that it is confusing. Her try this, is the luminaire the can, or is the can and (easy to change) trim as an assembly. For LED's the wording refers to the fact that you have to use the driver input information, not the lamp wattage for sizing, again, not applicable to my question I think.

 

[Strathead]

A can light *is* an outlet. It isn't a receptacle outlet unless you put a pignose in it...

Outlet: A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment

/mike

Utilization equipment: Equipment that utilizes electrical energy for ....lighting. For sake of argument, you can assign the definition of outlet to the integral junction box that is part of the fixture, but I contend that since it is integral to the utilization equipment it is actually the equipment not an outlet. Either way it isn't really germane to my question which is really asked in a serious vein, since it still isn't an outlet that falls under the general 180VA per outlet code issue.

 

[mwm1752]

The non IC can that can handle a 150W flood is to be counted as 150W per fixture per the energy commercial code. The recess can will also list the max lamp per the specific type of trims available, which has been NRTL approved. Some trims will have a max lamp of lesser than the recess can handle with other trims. Manufactures are now relabeling recess when requested with lesser max wattages in order to comply with energy codes. Non reversable screw shell adapters will also reder the recess to lesser wattages in using a pin lamp. Special LED retrofits will last longer & not need replaced on a regular basis. The code sounds specific on the max wattage to be inserted in the calculation but there are several alternatives to reduce the max wattage of the recess for branch circuit load calcs. The problem is you cannot control the person replacing the broken lamp when it is called for. Usually, lighting is a continuos load and the 20A circuit should be figured at 1920 watts max IMO. Really common sense is a valuable tool in assessing the load anticipated & documentation is recommended on the commercial aplication.

 

[Strathead]

It maybe a matter of semantics, but as I read the Art 100 definition, I would consider any light fixture as an outlet, perhaps more specifically the point where the fixture is connected to the wiring system.
I think the OP is a valid question. For myself, I have always inspected based on the maximum lamp the fixture should have with the trim installed.
Beyond that, for me, it becomes a "what if". What it they change trims is no different than what if they change the whole, fixture.

Thank you Augie! I have a call in to my local AHJ for that reason, but I am also looking for input from the likes of you here.

And to split hairs, I answered the outlet part in another post. I agree with you on the basis, but tend to come down the other way on the conclusion. Also point out that it is non-consequential to my issue. It isn't an outlet that falls under the 180VA rules, so for purposes of our discussion it is safer to think of it as a piece of utilization equipment, not an outlet.

 

[joebell]

Respectfully, I don't think you answered anything. I already posted the wording of 220.14 (D) and then stated that it is confusing. Her try this, is the luminaire the can, or is the can and (easy to change) trim as an assembly. For LED's the wording refers to the fact that you have to use the driver input information, not the lamp wattage for sizing, again, not applicable to my question I think.

I don't see the confussion. The word maximum in the article you quoted would be the value I would use in calculating the load on the branch circuit.If you are matching existing you could use that value instead as Augie has stated in an earlier post. As far as the screw in style LEDs, at least the ones I have installed, have an ampere rating stamped on them and 220.18 requires us to use this value when installing these lamps with the driver built in.

To answer your question about can and trim it is my opinion that the trim is a listed component to complete the luminaire.

 

[joebell]

It's not. It's an arbitrary # to stay out of a pissing match with any inspector.

Awesome, Truthful answer:thumbsup::lol:

 

[Strathead]

The non IC can that can handle a 150W flood is to be counted as 150W per fixture per the energy commercial code. The recess can will also list the max lamp per the specific type of trims available, which has been NRTL approved. Some trims will have a max lamp of lesser than the recess can handle with other trims. Manufactures are now relabeling recess when requested with lesser max wattages in order to comply with energy codes. Non reversable screw shell adapters will also reder the recess to lesser wattages in using a pin lamp. Special LED retrofits will last longer & not need replaced on a regular basis. The code sounds specific on the max wattage to be inserted in the calculation but there are several alternatives to reduce the max wattage of the recess for branch circuit load calcs. The problem is you cannot control the person replacing the broken lamp when it is called for. Usually, lighting is a continuos load and the 20A circuit should be figured at 1920 watts max IMO. Really common sense is a valuable tool in assessing the load anticipated & documentation is recommended on the commercial aplication.

Thank you for your answer. You speak with authority, but please clarify. First, we both know that the NEC and energy codes aren't the same thing, and the few State's energy codes I am familiar with are not specifically written to determine branch circuit sizing. Second, I don't see that the code is specific on the max wattage, as it doesn't state whether the luminaire is a just the can, or the can and trim as an assembly. For the record, I first came down on the same side as you, but discussion with others has made me question that. It is obvious to me that I would be safe to rate them at 150 watts, but it will also cost my customer and possibly cost me a job if I do that.

 

[Strathead]

Awesome, Truthful answer:thumbsup::lol:

Except it sort of is founded in code, that is why I answered and clarified the 13 general purpose outlets.

 

[joebell]

Except it sort of is founded in code, that is why I answered and clarified the 13 general purpose outlets.

So was Cavies if installing a 15 amp branch circuit. Nothing in the code states receptacle circuits in a non residential application must be 20 amps.