230.3(E) Does "Permanent" mean "Forever?&

[joe tedesco]

Installed about 10 years ago. Is it still permanent?

230.3(E) Identification.

Where a building or structure is supplied by more than one service, or any combination of branch circuits, feeders, and services, a permanent plaque or directory shall be installed at each service disconnect location denoting all other services, feeders, and branch circuits supplying that building or structure and the area served by each. See 225.37.

 

[bphgravity]

Re: 230.3(E) Does "Permanent" mean "Forever?&

In my opinion, the term permanent does not mean forever. The term permanent to me means fixed and unchangable. A magnetic sign or one secured by scotch tape would not qualify. I feel your picture meets the requirement of permanent.

I do feel the sign has met its life expectancy and should be removed in and replaced with a new permanent plaque.

 

[BAHTAH]

Re: 230.3(E) Does "Permanent" mean "Forever?&

The sign is permanent but in need of repair. The last I checked the words permanent and forever did not have the same meanings. The code does not say the sign must be forever only permanent, which by definition means at some point it time it may need repair.

 

[joe tedesco]

Re: 230.3(E) Does "Permanent" mean "Forever?&

So then you are saying that this required sign needs repair, but I am told that the NEC doesn't cover the subject of repair or maintenance, so the sign should stay this way?

The sign is now really at the end of its life.

Who should repair this sign? Do you think the NEC should say that the sign should be repaired when it gets old and worn out or should the local inspector be called about this issue?

 

[bphgravity]

Re: 230.3(E) Does "Permanent" mean "Forever?&

No, you are mixing two issues. At the time of installtion it met the code requirement of being a permanent sign. Now, due to lack of maintenance, the sign is no longer effective and needs replaced. This is not a code issue, it may be an OSHA issue.

[ June 01, 2004, 06:33 PM: Message edited by: bphgravity ]

 

[bphgravity]

Re: 230.3(E) Does "Permanent" mean "Forever?&

Just on a side-note, the ICC Electrical Code Administrative Provisions, Section 102 and 1203 cover the requirements of existing installations and maintenance.

It is interesting that the ICC codes incorporate a maintenance and exisiting installation standard, and the NEC does not.

My community has very little code enforcement after the initial installation inspection. In most cases, the local POCO recognizes a hazard and will disconnect power until corrections are made. At that time, and only at that time, the building department gets involved.

I, on several occasions, have notified code enforcement about severe violations and/or major hazards in rental units and other occupancies. In most cases, nothing is done.

 

[joe tedesco]

Re: 230.3(E) Does "Permanent" mean "Forever?&

The ICC codes incorporate a maintenance and existing installation standard ....

Interesting! Can you supply that information for me please.

Does OSHA have jurisdiction at a Hotel? That's where this sign can be found.

 

[bphgravity]

Re: 230.3(E) Does "Permanent" mean "Forever?&

International Code Council Electrical Code Administrative Provisions 2003 Edition:

102.1.1 Existing installations. Except as otherwise provided for this chapter, a provision in this code shall not require the removal, alteration or abandonment of, nor prevent the continued utilization and maintenance of, existing the electrical systems and equipment lawfully in existence at the time of the adoption of this code.
102.1.2 Maintenance Electrical systems, equipment, materials and appurtenances, both existing and new, and parts thereof shall be maintained in proper operatiing condition in accordance with the original design and in a safe, hazard-free condition. Devices or safeguards that are required by this code shall be maintained in compliance with the code edition under which installed. The owner or owner's designated agent shall be responsible for the maintenance of the electrical systems and equipment. To determine compliance with this provision, the code official shall have the authority to require that the electrical systems and equipment be reinspected.

 

[joe tedesco]

Re: 230.3(E) Does "Permanent" mean "Forever?&

Thank You, this is very helpful information!

 

[monkey]

Re: 230.3(E) Does "Permanent" mean "Forever?&

I have always felt from a common sense approach "permanent" means it should be durable enough to last as long as the equiptment it is installed with or on. JMHO.

 

[caosesvida]

Re: 230.3(E) Does "Permanent" mean "Forever?&

If I were the guy who was going to work on that building in 20 years I would want to know if there were two servies in that building.