230.71 and RV parks

[Desreft]

The six disconnect rule revision is making me question RV park hookups.

I am trying to equate RV parks to a school with a single utility service feeding multiple buildings. At schools, each building will require their own separate service disconnect even though a dedicated utility service is not connected directly to each building.

At RV parks, a single service is feeding multiple RV sites. Each RV has a main breaker/disconnect. But the site pedestals feeding RV's have multiple breakers and no main.

Will the requirements of 230.71 apply to pedestals, or are these requirements not applicable since they are not mentioned in 551,552?

 

[zbang]

While each building has a disconnect, it's not a service disconnect (since it's in a feeder) so that takes out 230.71 (but 225.31 and 225.33 would apply).

In an RV park, you'd have
Service disconnect
-> breaker/feeder #1
-> breaker/feeder #2
(etc)
where feeder #1 connects to maybe 6-7 pedestals with pass-through lugs, each ped. usually only has one 50amp outlet and one or two 20amp outlet.

(I'm looking at the 2017 code, don't have 2020 handy.)

 

[mbednarik]

Each pedestal is its own structure technically, but 225 will allow up to 6 switches. 230 only applied to service equipment, but if the pedestals were suitable as service equipment they would require some sort of main breaker since 2020, the MLO and 6 switch rule is no longer allowed.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Each pedestal is its own structure technically, but 225 will allow up to 6 switches. 230 only applied to service equipment, but if the pedestals were suitable as service equipment they would require some sort of main breaker since 2020, the MLO and 6 switch rule is no longer allowed.

They are equipment and not a structure.

Structure.
That which is built or constructed, other than equipment. (CMP-1)

 

[jap]

While each building has a disconnect, it's not a service disconnect (since it's in a feeder) so that takes out 230.71 (but 225.31 and 225.33 would apply).

In an RV park, you'd have
Service disconnect
-> breaker/feeder #1
-> breaker/feeder #2
(etc)
where feeder #1 connects to maybe 6-7 pedestals with pass-through lugs, each ped. usually only has one 50amp outlet and one or two 20amp outlet.

(I'm looking at the 2017 code, don't have 2020 handy.)

???

A single "Utility Service" feeding multiple buildings at a school is not a "Feeder", therefore, the fused disconnect installed at each individual building actually "would" be the Service disconnect for that building (since the wiring to each building from the utility are actually "service conductors" )

JAP>

 

[zbang]

How is that if the if the wires to the 'fed' building are downstream of the service point and pass through the first building's service disconnect (a simple example is a garage fed from a house)?

I read the OP's description "even though a dedicated utility service is not connected directly to each building" as-
utility-> service entrance conductors to building #1 -> service disconnect at building #1 -> OCPD -> feeder to building #2 -> building disconnect
(OP does not indicate that the service entrance conductors for #2 pass close to but not inside of #1)

That's different from
utility -> service entrance conductors to building #1 -> service disconnect
utility -> service entrance conductors to building #2 -> service disconnect

As usual, the devil is in the details and we don't have those for the OP's situation.

 

[Desreft]

Thank you for the clarification. These answers cleared things up for me. This is how I see things now.

I do agree that the pedestals are not services. So taking 230.71 out of the equation is correct. But, these are also not structures, so I dont think that 225.31 and 225.33 apply either. I also would not call them equipment.
551 - defines each pedestal as a power supply assembly
551.44 - defines power supply assemblies in more detail by stating that each assembly shall only include one rating to supply power to each RV site.
551.45 - opens the door for the use of panelboards at RV sites.

So, these typical pedestals are remote free standing 125A power panelboards with multiple circuit breakers in them and no main. A group of these panelboards are typically fed by 200A feeders.


Under that lens, then I think that the requirements of 408.36 would apply. This section allows a maximum of two OCPD having a rating not greater than that of the panelboard. So in my opinion, for pedestals with 3 or more breakers, then these are the options:

1 - Each pedestal will need one main breaker, given that the feeder is rated higher than the panelboard.
OR
2 - if the OCPD is at the service protecting the feeder to multiple panelboards, then the feeder to multiple panelboards cannot exceed 125A (or the rating of the panelboards)

 

[jap]

How is that if the if the wires to the 'fed' building are downstream of the service point and pass through the first building's service disconnect (a simple e

Where'd you come up with all of that information?

The OP stated.

"I am trying to equate RV parks to a school with a single utility service feeding multiple buildings. At schools, each building will require their own separate service disconnect even though a dedicated utility service is not connected directly to each building.".

I'm picturing a utility transformer on a pole in the middle swinging service conductors overhead to each individual buildings.
but,
I agree, not enough information to know exactly.


JAP>

 

[jap]

So, these typical pedestals are remote free standing 125A power panelboards with multiple circuit breakers in them and no main. A group of these panelboards are typically fed by 200A feeders.

That's about all that needs to be known.

These are individual power pedestals fed by a "Feeder" although if those feeders are protected by a 200 amp OCPD then the 125 Amp MLO's are under sized.

JAP>

 

[Desreft]

Where'd you come up with all of that information?

The OP stated.

"I am trying to equate RV parks to a school with a single utility service feeding multiple buildings. At schools, each building will require their own separate service disconnect even though a dedicated utility service is not connected directly to each building.".

I'm picturing a utility transformer on a pole in the middle swinging service conductors overhead to each individual buildings.
but,
I agree, not enough information to know exactly.


JAP>

For clarity, I meant to say an utility service to a single large swtichboard with a meter and a main. This switchboard in turn feeds the other buildings in a school campus through feeders. Then each building includes their own main disconnect.

 

[jim dungar]

So, these typical pedestals are remote free standing 125A power panelboards with multiple circuit breakers in them and no main. A group of these panelboards are typically fed by 200A feeders.


Under that lens, then I think that the requirements of 408.36 would apply. This section allows a maximum of two OCPD having a rating not greater than that of the panelboard. So in my opinion, for pedestals with 3 or more breakers, then these are the options:

1 - Each pedestal will need one main breaker, given that the feeder is rated higher than the panelboard.
OR
2 - if the OCPD is at the service protecting the feeder to multiple panelboards, then the feeder to multiple panelboards cannot exceed 125A (or the rating of the panelboards)

The 200A breaker at the start of the feeder would be sufficient, for 408.36, if the RV pedestals were 200A. However if they are really 125A then you need to comply with the tap rules in 240.21(B) as well as the 'main' breaker requirements in 408.36.

 

[jap]

For clarity, I meant to say an utility service to a single large swtichboard with a meter and a main. This switchboard in turn feeds the other buildings in a school campus through feeders. Then each building includes their own main disconnect.

That clears that up.

JAP>

 

[Desreft]

The 200A breaker at the start of the feeder would be sufficient, for 408.36, if the RV pedestals were 200A. However if they are really 125A then you need to comply with the tap rules in 240.21(B) as well as the 'main' breaker requirements in 408.36.

I agree. That's also another option. Thank you

 

[zbang]

I'm picturing a utility transformer on a pole in the middle swinging service conductors overhead to each individual buildings.
but, I agree, not enough information to know exactly.

We were looking it from completely different directions although I thought the OP was fairly clear, hence my answer (feeders to other buildings), it was confusing that the OP originally referred to service disconnects where those aren't actually services, that's what I was trying to square with the rest of the description.

Now we know.

As for the ped's, check the listing and install instructions.....

 

[jap]

We were looking it from completely different directions although I thought the OP was fairly clear, hence my answer (feeders to other buildings), it was confusing that the OP originally referred to service disconnects where those aren't actually services, that's what I was trying to square with the rest of the description.

Now we know.

As for the ped's, check the listing and install instructions.....

I'm with ya.

JAP>

 

[augie47]

As I recall the feed-thru RV pedestals do meet the 240.21 tap rules. The terminals are rated for the 200 amp feed thru conductors and the internal taps top the RV equipment breakers meet 240.21 even though they being listed equipment they might not be required to meet 240.21

 

[jap]

As I recall the feed-thru RV pedestals do meet the 240.21 tap rules. The terminals are rated for the 200 amp feed thru conductors and the internal taps top the RV equipment breakers meet 240.21 even though they being listed equipment they might not be required to meet 240.21

Again, I feel the proper language needs to be used.

I could speculate, but, what the OP described, these could be nothing more than MLO Loadccenters with breakers in them.

Quote "So, these typical pedestals are remote free standing 125A power panelboards with multiple circuit breakers in them and no main. A group of these panelboards are typically fed by 200A feeders."

Just sayin,, oh well,,,

JAP>

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Again, I feel the proper language needs to be used.

I could speculate, but, what the OP described, these could be nothing more than MLO Loadccenters with breakers in them.

Quote "So, these typical pedestals are remote free standing 125A power panelboards with multiple circuit breakers in them and no main. A group of these panelboards are typically fed by 200A feeders."

Just sayin,, oh well,,,

JAP>

551.77 Recreational Vehicle Site Supply Equipment.
Recreational vehicle site supply equipment shall be listed for use as recreational vehicle site supply equipment and shall comply with 551.77(A) through (F).

So they are not remote free standing panelboards. They are a specific listed product.

 

[jap]

So they are not remote free standing panelboards. They are a specific listed product.

There was no mention in any of these posts that the breakers in the so called " power panelboards" were feeding RV receptacle outlets so how do you know?

Without that information , one would only be "assuming" that this discussion is about "listed" RV Power Pedestals.

JAP>

 

[don_resqcapt19]

There was no mention in any of these posts that the breakers in the so called " power panelboards" were feeding RV receptacle outlets so how do you know?

Without that information , one would only be "assuming" that this discussion is about "listed" RV Power Pedestals.

JAP>

The title of the thread is "230.71 and RV parks". If it is an RV park, the listed product is required to be used per 551.77.