240V outlet for stage bands

[2wheelinusa]

I am going to wire a stage in a bar for rock bands, etc. The owner wants a 240V / 3-wire range recept installed because most of the bands have a subpanel setup with 120V recepts on dedicated circuits. I told him this kind of setup was not safe, and it should be a 4-wire recept. My question is, am I liable if something should happen? Should I care what is going to be plugged into this receptacle, as long as I advised the bar owner that their could be problems? Would putting a 50A gfi breaker in the main panel feeding the recept be the safer way to go? I know if the band's setup had 120V gfi recepts it would be safe, but I know most of them are standard recepts. Maybe I should walk away from this.

 

[480sparky]

Add to the price the cost of changing the cord on the bands panel to a 4-wire.

Then you can get in without paying the cover, and stay to hear the band play for free.

 

[brantmacga]

i would go with the 3-wire if thats what the owner wants. you're going to create a huge hassle if you put in a 4-wire recep and all of the bands have 3-wire plug attachments.






have mercy

 

[e57]

Most professional theater sparkies would be looking for one of few things, a pin and sleeve connector (4-5 wire), or cam-lock whips (4-5 wire), or 120v (3-wire 20-60a) "stage pin" type whips. Never been asked for a 3-wire range outlet....

I would seek out the local theater supply and see what they are renting to local bands/lighting crews.

 

[brantmacga]

Most professional theater sparkies would be looking for one of few things, a pin and sleeve connector (4-5 wire), or cam-lock whips (4-5 wire), or 120v (3-wire 20-60a) "stage pin" type whips. Never been asked for a 3-wire range outlet....

I would seek out the local theater supply and see what they are renting to local bands/lighting crews.

I think you missed the first line in the op. I'll post it again for you.

I am going to wire a stage in a bar for rock bands

 

[zbang]

If the owner really wants a 3-wire outlet, I'd probably install it. OTOH, I'd first try to convince the owner that a 8- or 12-space subpanel with one duplex per 20a breaker was a better & safer way to go. Emphasize the "safer" part. Mark it "dedicated stage power" or something like that.

(Some hotels install 4-wire range outlets for subpanels, I've seen that a few times. The local lighting rental place knows this and has the correct plug on their subpanel.)

e57 is quite right, as far as stage electricians go, but I wouldn't lump bar band roadies in with them. Depending on load, I'm usually looking for either lugs or 1016 camloks or for dedicated 5-20s.

 

[2wheelinusa]

zbang,
I did mention a subpanel with dedicated recepts, but he spoke to a band member and they said a lot of time they will get feedback when using the bar recepts, but not with their own setup. He mentioned wiring up a 4-wire and then making an adapter, but then that's definitely cause for problems. I guess if I pretend I don't know what it's for, I won't worry about it. Do you think a 50A gfi would cause nuisance trips? Thanks for your feedback.

 

[iwire]

Never been asked for a 3-wire range outlet....
.

That is the most common request of bar bands in this area.

The tour busses generally ask for that as well.

 

[zbang]

I did mention a subpanel with dedicated recepts, but he spoke to a band member and they said a lot of time they will get feedback when using the bar recepts, but not with their own setup.

Gak, really rank (and ignorant) amatures (the band, not you). Feedback is caused acoustically, not electrically. Now, ground loops are electric, but that's why you use a dedicated stage power panel, so everything grounds at roughly the same point. Good system design doesn't hurt, either. I wouldn't be surprised if they had all kinds of ground loops when they're using random outlets from around the building. They probably use a fair number of 2-prong adapters, too.

He mentioned wiring up a 4-wire and then making an adapter, but then that's definitely cause for problems. I guess if I pretend I don't know what it's for, I won't worry about it.

I'm not sure you could "legally" make that adapter, since that either breaks the EGC or creates a parallel neutral path, depending on how it's done.

Do you think a 50A gfi would cause nuisance trips?

I'd expect it .

All that aside-
I'd probably say, "tell me you want a 50a range receptacle on the stage for cooking demonstrations." and be done with it. Then install a proper 4-wire receptacle, collect your check, and leave.

 

[e57]

That is the most common request of bar bands in this area.

The tour busses generally ask for that as well.

So you give them two hots and a noodle with no ground means what-so-ever??? :-?

 

[e57]

I think you missed the first line in the op. I'll post it again for you.

I'll post this again too....

I would seek out the local theater supply and see what they are renting to local bands/lighting crews.

Local to me....
There are a number of outlets that supply rental equipment to bands, stage lighting and the convention industry. Much of it standard typical pro equipment.... Distribution centers, lighting and sound....

Former employer (an EC) owned a nightclub... In its day I did quite a bit of work there. The owner had a number of cord drop boxes with 5-15's for the lower-end bands that played his place. And cam-locks for the pro's. Had someone asked for a 50a 3-wire he would have given them a talkin' to. Had they dug into his panels to jury rig something he would have had thier head...

 

[brantmacga]

I'll post this again too....


Local to me....
There are a number of outlets that supply rental equipment to bands, stage lighting and the convention industry. Much of it standard typical pro equipment.... Distribution centers, lighting and sound....

Former employer (an EC) owned a nightclub... In its day I did quite a bit of work there. The owner had a number of cord drop boxes with 5-15's for the lower-end bands that played his place. And cam-locks for the pro's. Had someone asked for a 50a 3-wire he would have given them a talkin' to. Had they dug into his panels to jury rig something he would have had thier head...

I think you're expecting too much of a rock bar band. Or you guys have some really nice upscale bars with local bands that have roadies, techs, etc. . . The OP stated that most bands that came in needed a 3-wire range receptacle. Deductive reasoning leads me to believe they're not renting from a local supply shop. Your former employer was a rarity; how many EC's other than him do you know that own a bar, and keep the electrical system in tippity-top shape?

 

[infinity]

I would give the owner what he wants as long as it complies with the code. The end user will become the owners problem not yours.

 

[ultramegabob]

a couple years ago, I installed a 8 space 60 amp tail panel for a stage in a bar with 8 20 amp dedicated circuits on the stage, but if the customer is asking for a range recept just install a range recept. You could even size your conduit for the fourth wire for the future, and pull a pull string in, that way if they change thier mind later, its an easier fix...

 

[iwire]

So you give them two hots and a noodle with no ground means what-so-ever??? :-?

It had a grounding means, it used the neutral as the grounding means. In my outdoor situation I would argue 250.32(B)(2) applied.

The owner had a number of cord drop boxes with 5-15's for the lower-end bands that played his place. And cam-locks for the pro's. Had someone asked for a 50a 3-wire he would have given them a talkin' to. Had they dug into his panels to jury rig something he would have had thier head...

I would say he is one of one in the world of night club managers.

Of course I should say my experience was not at clubs but five years at an amusement park that had outdoor shows a couple of times a week.

Most of those shows where by local bar bands and cover bands. We had a KISS cover band that had some great homemade effects.

It was even better when the band would throw out a 6/3 rubber cord and ask me to land it on a 200 amp disconnect we had for larger bands.

I would do it but I would fuse reduce down to the appropriate rating.

For the large shows we had a couple of 200 and a 400 amp disconnects that I would hard wire cam loc whips into.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

Remember Rhode Island and then make your choice.

Somebody is going to take the fall if something goes bad, the courts will recognize you as the expert who is supposed to know how to properly install.


I am involved as an expert in two court cases as we speak. The attorneys are relentless and have many experts hired for their side.

 

[iwire]

Remember Rhode Island and then make your choice.

I do, my wife and I had gone to that club twice before the fire as a patrons and I went there about a week after the fire to look at the memorials left for all the dead. That club was no more then 5 miles from the Amusement park I worked at.


But I also know when to pick my battles.

It is ultimately up to each of us, I would handle it just like Trevor said.

I would give the owner what he wants as long as it complies with the code. The end user will become the owners problem not yours.

All of us have wired typical GP receptacles that the end user has used in a way that violates the NEC.

 

[brantmacga]

Remember Rhode Island and then make your choice.

I see where you're going with that, but a 3-wire range recep isn't the same as bad pyrotechnics.

 

[htroberts]

I am going to wire a stage in a bar for rock bands, etc. The owner wants a 240V / 3-wire range recept installed because most of the bands have a subpanel setup with 120V recepts on dedicated circuits. I told him this kind of setup was not safe, and it should be a 4-wire recept. My question is, am I liable if something should happen? Should I care what is going to be plugged into this receptacle, as long as I advised the bar owner that their could be problems? Would putting a 50A gfi breaker in the main panel feeding the recept be the safer way to go? I know if the band's setup had 120V gfi recepts it would be safe, but I know most of them are standard recepts. Maybe I should walk away from this.

I'm not an attorney, and this isn't legal advice, but you've just said you know it's not safe. If you install it, knowing it's not safe, personally I think you're negligent, and if I were on the jury, I'd vote to convict you after the fire. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I've seen the aftermath of a fire started by poor wiring by someone who should have known better. If the owner doesn't want to follow your advice, let someone else do the job.

I'm pretty sure my AHJ wouldn't allow a three-wire receptacle, anyway--it seems obvious that no one is planning to install an electric cooking appliance on the stage, and that this might be intended to supply portable distribution equipment.

Given the potential for abuse, I wouldn't install any wiring device over 20A in this type of location that wasn't dead-front, and preferably interlocked and beer-resistant. I've used Hubbell or Leviton 560MI9W in similar situations (this one is three-phase, of course there's a 120/240V equivalent), but obviously that's quite a bit more expensive than a range receptacle. I've seen ads from a company called Meltric that looked like they might have a superior product, but isn't IEC 309 compatible.

 

[brantmacga]

I'm not an attorney, and this isn't legal advice, but you've just said you know it's not safe. If you install it, knowing it's not safe, personally I think you're negligent,

When the OP says its "not safe", they're referring to the single grounded conductor setup and not having an additional grounding conductor.

and if I were on the jury, I'd vote to convict you after the fire. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I've seen the aftermath of a fire started by poor wiring by someone who should have known better. If the owner doesn't want to follow your advice, let someone else do the job.

Well, I guess you'd have to prove that it was poor wiring. A properly installed receptacle w/ correct overcurrent protection poses no fire hazard. Its what the end-user plugs into that receptacle that can be the fire hazard. The OP has no control over how they use the device, and should not be held responsible if something were to go wrong with the end-user's equipment. If I were on the jury with you, I'd call you crazy.

I'm pretty sure my AHJ wouldn't allow a three-wire receptacle, anyway--it seems obvious that no one is planning to install an electric cooking appliance on the stage, and that this might be intended to supply portable distribution equipment.

What's your opinion on the millions of homes w/ 3-wire SEU services?

Given the potential for abuse, I wouldn't install any wiring device over 20A in this type of location that wasn't dead-front, and preferably interlocked and beer-resistant. I've used Hubbell or Leviton 560MI9W in similar situations (this one is three-phase, of course there's a 120/240V equivalent), but obviously that's quite a bit more expensive than a range receptacle. I've seen ads from a company called Meltric that looked like they might have a superior product, but isn't IEC 309 compatible.

I would bet if you installed an interlock, it would be fixed w/ a 3' cord w/ a female range recep on the end. Now the interlock is a waste.